USMS OW SANCTIONING

245

Comments

  • gregocgregoc Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    @evmo, if you don't mind me asking, does SBCSA get an insurance policy for each solo swim or do they get coverage for the whole year that covers all events?
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    @gregoc - Yes, our policy covers the entire season.
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    @evmo, who covers SBCSA?
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    @gregoc - The Camp Team, with Francis L. Dean as underwriter.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited February 2013

    I don't believe this was well thought out by USMS, unless their ultimate goal is to get out of the OW business.

    If the latter, one wonders where they think their future growth will be coming from? Pool swimming? haha

    I ask this question with full knowledge that this thread is being watched closely in Sarasota. (Hi, guys!)
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    evmo said:

    If the latter, one wonders where they think their future growth will be coming from? Pool swimming?

    It is my belief that much of the growth of USMS is due to the insurance requirements of various aquatic facilities... It has been pointed out many times that only a small percentage of masters swimmers compete, and of those, many only compete in multi-sport events that aren’t sanctioned by USMS.

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • I don't believe this was well thought out by USMS, unless their ultimate goal is to get out of the OW business.

    Dave,

    You are obviously entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but as a member of the USMS Open Water Committee, Board of Directors and the Open Water Sanctioning Task Force, as well as an open water race director and swimmer for over 30 years, I believe we put a lot of thought into the decisions that were made. The fact this may be a hard pill to swallow for us race directors does not mean USMS did not think about the impact. In fact, to the contrary, this topic consumed hours upon hours of debate and hundreds of emails.

    I can also tell you I believe the ultimate goal of USMS is NOT to get out of sanctioning and supporting Open Water activities.
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    edited February 2013
    Sure, Evan, I have a comment or two. But I'll just throw out a couple of questions.

    What types of support boats will be able to provide the insurance certificate for the $1 million?

    Do jet boats or jet skis also have to provide the insurance certificate?

    Are USCG Auxiliary exempt from the requirements? How about active duty Seals/Navy on a private support boat? What about USCG certified boat captains on private boats? Or what about a water-based paramedic/firefighter on his private boat?

    Is USMS not going to advertise events that are not USMS sanctioned? In the past, USMS has listed all events, sanctioned or not.

    In lieu of a USMS sanction, Steve M. et. al. have been great at giving a contact for insurance coverage. But what rules are going to followed for these non-USMS sanctioned events? Do we follow CSA rules, CSPF, WOWSA or are we on our own to come up with rules regarding swim suits, caps etc?

    In the early years of the Tampa Bay Marathon Swim, we allowed some swimmers to be escorted with kayaks without the powerboat shadowing the pair. That was great when the weather was kind, but anything above a 10kt wind made it obvious that we needed powerboats as support. So, for safety's sake, we now require the powerboats on the course. I'm wondering now, would USMS sanction an event like ours that only has human powered craft on the course?

    Rob Copeland, you were very good about spending time with me on the phone back in January, and I consider you to be an advocate for open water events and their race directors. I mentioned to you a possible solution that I'd like to put out for the group to consider. Is there a way to "Recognize" open water events a la pool meets that are USMS Recognized? Race directors would be on their own to find their insurance coverage, but the USMS would be able to provide the advertising and the rules.

    These are just a couple of quick questions, and please don't consider this to be a rant. I don't disagree with prop-guards, use of USCG boats and the other safety procedures. Although I'm trying to keep our event USMS, the insurance paperwork is just not going to happen, unless someone out there has an idea for me. I've been in touch with jet boaters, but I am not going to bring on a totally new support staff if they can't provide the proof of insurance.

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • Thanks Ron!

    I fondly remember my 2 Tampa Bay swims with kayak support, praying that my kayaker wouldn’t swamp her boat. They did a great job!

    As to your questions, I’d love to give you answers, but the best I can do is to direct you to the recently added frequently asked questions on the USMS web site http://www.usms.org/usmsadmin/content/admin/lmschb/content/owsanctionfaq and suggest you send your questions directly to owsupport@usms.org
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    edited February 2013

    Dave,

    You are obviously entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but as a member of the USMS Open Water Committee, Board of Directors and the Open Water Sanctioning Task Force, as well as an open water race director and swimmer for over 30 years, I believe we put a lot of thought into the decisions that were made. The fact this may be a hard pill to swallow for us race directors does not mean USMS did not think about the impact. In fact, to the contrary, this topic consumed hours upon hours of debate and hundreds of emails.

    I can also tell you I believe the ultimate goal of USMS is NOT to get out of sanctioning and supporting Open Water activities.

    Rob,
    I know you've been around the block a few times, and appreciate your work for USMS and the swimming community, but:
    Has anyone at USMS even researched the availability of the insurance coverage that they are now requiring from boats? ...or how it might be available?
    Has anyone at USMS considered the many variations that exist in OW venues before accepting the prop-guard requirements? (Which BTW I think work great for events like Lac St Jean where a 16' personal escort is provided per swimmer, and a flotilla of additional support craft is close by), but simply won't work for many others.

    If these ideas were discussed to exhaustion as you say and USMS still put forward said requirements, you would have me conclude otherwise? Tell me, what sort of OW activities is USMS looking to support? Cable races? Sheltered puddles that can be supported by kayak?

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • Dave, in answer to your questions Yes, Yes, Yes, I don’t think this is a question, Open Water activities that are conducted in accordance with USMS rules and administrative regulations, Yes, No.

    USMS has decided to limit sanctions to Open Water events where our insurance is enforce. USMS is not in a position to sanction uninsured activities. And for 2013, one of our requirements for insurance coverage is propeller guards on propeller driven watercraft. Another requirement is the POI/COI. And while I wasn’t personally involved, I believe it when I am told the USMS staff and insurance broker worked diligently to find the best available coverage at the fair rate. I’m told the pool of underwriters willing to write a $10MM policy covering all participants and event workers is rather small.

    I understand and I’ve explained to the USMS Board that the new requirements for sanctioned swims and the insurance surcharge will cause many directors of previously sanctioned events to run without a USMS sanctioned (hopefully with a USA Swimming sanction or by finding insurance elsewhere) and some events that relied on the “free insurance” may not be conducted this year. It is my hope that USMS can develop the programs necessary to mitigate some of the more severe sanction requirements, so that in 2014 more events can meet the requirements to be sanctioned. Unfortunately, I don’t foresee a huge reduction in insurance costs next year, but at least USMS has time to plan for 2014 expenses and hopefully spread the cost.
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    edited February 2013

    Dave, in answer to your questions Yes, Yes, Yes, I don’t think this is a question, Open Water activities that are conducted in accordance with USMS rules and administrative regulations, Yes, No.

    Actually Rob, none of my post was a question but rather a mini-rant... but here are some questions:
    Where did USMS find a $1,000,000 non-commercial boaters insurance policy to be available?
    (kindly provide a link so we all may benefit from this research)
    Will I find that availability only applies to certain States?

    ...and please understand (I think you do) that it is not the cost of sanction or insurance that has many event directors such as myself put off by the actions of USMS but simply the fact that there is NO WAY to apply current USMS requirements to the more ambitious venues that have formerly operated with sanctions from USMS.


    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • Rob_CopelandRob_Copeland Member
    edited February 2013
    Dave,

    I did not personally research insurance providers, so your best bet for an answer is to pose your question to OWsupport@usms.org .

    The races I run in Georgia fall under your category of “Sheltered puddles that can be supported by kayak”. We use kayaks manned by water-front certified lifeguards and motorized watercraft that are either volunteered or operated by Fire & Rescue or Coast Guard.
  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    What can you do as an open water swimmer? USMS offered three solutions in it's recent email:

    1) "Be patient."

    2) "Don’t grumble or gripe about increased entry fees to swim open water events."

    3) "Offer to volunteer".

    While these are excellent recommendations, it displays a complete ignorance of, or distaste for, the sport of open water swimming and its swimmers. At best it shows that rather than embracing the sport and supporting it's growth, it merely tolerates it.
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member
    I am a huge fan of #3! Please volunteer at OW events. But it is not a solution.

    Here is one #4) seek out OW swims that are not sanctioned/insured by USMS. I have a feeling that these swims will increase in number in the 2013 season.
  • timsroottimsroot Spring, TXCharter Member
    gregoc said:

    Here is one #4) seek out OW swims that are not sanctioned/insured by USMS. I have a feeling that these swims will increase in number in the 2013 season.

    I know of a handful of great swims that haven't been sanctioned by USMS, and never have been to the best of my knowledge. Swim Across the Sound, the Snapping Tortuga series north of Houston, all of the ASA swims in the Austin area. This year, I don't know if the Pensacola Bridge Swims will be, I think he was dual sanctioned before.

    The impact of this decision will be pretty significant.
  • KBREEDERKBREEDER Member
    edited February 2013
    1) "Be patient."

    2) "Don’t grumble or gripe about increased entry fees to swim open water events."

    3) "Offer to volunteer".

    Bob these 'partial' quotes are from a newsletter that I wrote for US Open Water Swimming Connection and are NOT from USMS. Anyone can read the short article of what I wrote at http://usopenwaterswimming.org/SanctionChanges.htm. This is MY opinion. I wrote it because event organizers whether or not they choose to go with USMS sanctions will be under tremendous stress this year and I wanted people to understand why and not "shoot the organizers".

    Here is the entire quote from one point:

    1) Be patient with the open water event directors in your area. They will be under increased stresses this year; whether they keep their USMS sanction or seek new insurance coverage.


  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    Ok here is the entire quote. I don't mean to attack you personally, but it is a criticism of the organization would send this email to me and others. IMHO

    My apologies if this offended you.

    "What can you do as an open water swimmer?

    1) Be patient with the open water event directors in your area. They will be under increased stresses this year; whether they keep their USMS sanction or seek new insurance coverage.

    2) Don’t grumble or gripe about increased entry fees to swim open water events. Event directors incurring greater costs have few options other than to pass the costs on to participants.

    3) Offer to volunteer in your area to assist local race directors in hosting their swim. Even if you plan to swim in their event, you can call your local race director and see if he/she needs help setting-up the event, or cleaning up afterwards. Inquire as to any supplies, food, water or other items you can donate to help make their swim a success."

    It assumes that

    1) Swimmers are oblivious to the great demands that race directors are under putting on the even.

    2) Swimmers are whiners

    3) swimmers don't volunteer, and that somehow this will save directors a lot of money, (although it does improve the events)
  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    Additionally, this was titled: "Changes in Open Water Sanctions for USMS" and came from "admin@usopenwaterswimming"
  • Bob,

    I wrote it and stand by it. I don't assume that open water swimmers are whiners (I am an open water swimmer and I don't consider myself a whiner) . I think these new regulations will devastate the long escorted swims, or at the very least those swim will no longer be sanctioned by USMS. As Ron stated from Tampa Bay, some swims just can't be run safely with kayaks. I was very upset by these new standards and I assume other people will be as well. We need to try to work together as a community instead of getting angry at one other. I fear that a lot of event directors will throw up their hands and say "it just isn't worth it" to put on open water swims, USMS sanctioned or not.
  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    KBREEDER said:



    "I am an open water swimmer".

    Clearly (and a very modest one at that)

    I think these new regulations will devastate the long escorted swims, or at the very least those swim will no longer be sanctioned by USMS. As Ron stated from Tampa Bay, some swims just can't be run safely with kayaks. I was very upset by these new standards and I assume other people will be as well. We need to try to work together as a community instead of getting angry at one other. I fear that a lot of event directors will throw up their hands and say "it just isn't worth it" to put on open water swims, USMS sanctioned or not.

    Agree 100%
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited February 2013
    @Niek - the cost of being a USMS member goes roughly like this:

    USMS fee (national) +
    LMSC fee (regional) +
    Club fee (local)

    For 2013, the USMS fee was $33, and my regional Southern California LMSC fee was $13. Club fees vary much more, but mine is approx. $600/year. So a total of ~$650 annually.

    Similar to your number, but it's important to note that most of it is not going to the national office.
  • FilFil Derby, VTCharter Member
    For us at Kingdom Swim and our other NEKOWSA Swims we have several issues that cause grave concerns. I should say at the start that USMS has been a valued partner as we started Kingdom Swim in 2009, organized it, and promoted it and as we added other smaller swims to our list of offerings in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont.

    Price of Insurance: Kingdom Swim is hosting the 10 Mile National USMS Championship this year. We would live with the $1,000 insurance fee for the non-championship swims being conducted at the same time as the USMS Championship. At least for this year. However, this year we are offering 11 other swims this year. They range from a 2 person 50 mile relay, to 5 or 10 person 3 to 5 mile swims to a 25 to 50 person Lake Willoughby Swim. As we understand it USMS would be looking for $1,000 to $1,800 for each event, regardless of the size, regardless of the distance. Yet, to our way of thinking, smaller is safer. Insurance should be prorated on total USMS membership or on number of participants in the event. With this flat fee, USMS has effectively turned its back on smaller (and generally safer) open water swimming events.

    Propellers: As I understand it, EVERY motorized boat involved in an open water swim must now have a propeller guard. Agreed that motorized boats that serve as escort boats should have propeller guards. Agreed that in small course "closed loop" courses being monitored by a couple of motor boats and a lot of kayaks, this kind of a requirement may be warranted and practicable. Our swims are longer swims, with each swimmer having an escort kayak and motorized boats monitoring the swimming lanes but from outside the lanes. At Kingdom Swim we have 15 to 20 motorized volunteer boats. If we asked them to voluntarily allow us to attach guards, we would have none. They simply would be unwilling to allow this modification to their beloved boats.

    Proof of Insurance: It appears that USMS is requiring that volunteer motor boats provide proof of insurance. (Not sure if this also extends to volunteer kayakers.) When we talk to volunteers (who we are asking to support our event), they often want to know whether we have insurance to cover them. We say yes. If they volunteer to support our event, we expect to be able to tell them we are insured for their activities. We fully expect to be able to say that one of the things we offer them for their willingness to volunteer is that our insurance will cover them for their volunteer work for us. If we asked them for proof of insurance, they would say "thanks, but no thanks." We would be left with a quarter of the boats that we now have. Less support = Less safety. Just as importantly, it's just not right

    We have asked USMS to review these issues. In the meantime, we have begun to identify other insurance options that appear to be more affordable and more attuned to the realities of our brand of open water swimming.

    Make no mistake, our hope is that USMS will respond with some flexibility regarding these issues. We grew up with USMS. It has been a valued partner. We don't turn our back lightly on those who have been our friends. But, we can't afford $1,800 insurance premium for a 5 mile swim that involves only 10 swimmers. We can't ask our volunteer patrol boats to modify their boats and cage their props. And we can't ask our volunteers to show us proof that they are insured for their acts while they are volunteering to help us.

    My real name is Phil White. If any of you want to contact me directly my e-mail address is: pwhite@orleansrecreation.org



  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    What grinds my gears is how this is being presented as an effort to make OW events safer.... its not about safety, its about liability.
    A prop guard mounted to a motor does nothing to make the driver any safer or give them any more experience.

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • timsroottimsroot Spring, TXCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    @Fil As I read it you only have to pay 1 time $1,000 if the events are in the same weekend

    You read that part correctly on the USMS website, but not all of Phil's events are the same weekend. I'm doing the USMS championship that he's hosting, but he has some events previous to this, and some events after this. The 25 mile swim that his organization hosts is in September. His full schedule is herehttp://www.kingdomswim.org/NEKOWSA.php, with swims as early as June 15th, and as late as September 7th.

  • lcolettelcolette Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    Last night at our LMSC meeting, two things were of concern outside the 1800 sticker shock that concerned me.

    1) Was the 1 million insurance policy per boat
    2) The information that all volunteers on the boat needed to have similar insurance policies...

    I have yet to verify that as fact this morning but my LMSC was spot on with everything else.
    Hell, I only pay my volunteers in food, drink and the official event T-shirt and gas money. I would be willing to pay for the cost of the prop guard but with these concerns I most probably will use my event membership in USMS to swim in the grey prison from now on because those costs are what is going to doom any solo endeavor.
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    The La Jolla Roughwater swims, The Great Chesapeake Bay Swim, NYCSWIM, many San Francisco Bay races have been successful and long running without USMS sanction. Does anyone here have insight in how they insure there programs?
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    Lakespray, there are plenty of alternative insurance sources, listed on this thread, and also through triathlon insurers. Simply put, if there is no way to comply with the insurance requirements, race directors can go it alone and find insurance elsewhere. Or we can put together an alternative organization and call it something like the "American Marathon Swimming Association" and agree to follow uniform rules.

    Maybe this guy from Indiana can help:
    http://grinswim.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/bill-roach-named-usms/

    I've had plenty of friends ask me why I shouldn't apply for that position. My response is, "What, so I can become the most unpopular guy in open water swimming?" Seriously, that guy is probably going to "take it on the head." For you puddle swimmers, to "take it on the head" is a term used in surfing.

    And David Barra and Morty Berger are correct when they say that this is about liability, and not about safety.

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member

    Or we can put together an alternative organization and call it something like the "American Marathon Swimming Association" and agree to follow uniform rules.

    I prefer the U.S. Marathon Swimming Association, and the bylaws and documents I'm drafting now reflect that name. ;)

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • lcolettelcolette Charter Member
    @IronMike tell me what the dues are and where to send them... =D>
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    edited February 2013
    I emailed S. Munatones yesterday about the WOWSA, but he is on travel and he hasn't sent any of the details yet. That is an alternative that is already in place, and may be the go to option. Mike, you may want to wait to see those details before putting too much effort into your docs.

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • lcolettelcolette Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    @IronMike and @RonCollins GB has the Bristish Long Distance Swimming Association (BLDSA), Ireland - ILDSA..... I think the USLDSA would be a good name because we could also help those small organizations or clubs that are considering giving up their 1 and 2 mile swims.... and we could help guide safety in those swims as a proactive step rather than reacting to 'fear of litigation' and 'insurance' threats.
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    edited February 2013
    Or, how about United States Marathon Swimming, so we can get a domain name like USMS.net or something similar? :)

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    I think any new organization should consider the benefit of all open water swimming activities and not be limited to "marathon" distance events, though it does seem like these are the most marginalized by current USMS policy, there is little reason to move forward with a suggestion of exclusivity. CIBBOWS hosts several events each year, and most would not fall into the marathon category.

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    Keith Bell has something that may work: http://www.americanswimmingassociation.com/

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • lcolettelcolette Charter Member
    @David_Barra exactly my point but much better stated.....
  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    I'm good with USLDSA. ;)

    I'm writing up ideas as a thought experiment. I'm not planning on doing anything with my ideas unless I can find a bunch of marathon swimmers seriously interested in pursuing something like the USLDSA.

    OOH! How about the American Long Distance Swimming Association? ALDSA? To keep the same number of letters as our British and Irish friends?

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • timsroottimsroot Spring, TXCharter Member

    Keith Bell has something that may work: http://www.americanswimmingassociation.com/

    Keith Bell is a bit of an odd duck (he does live in Austin, I think it's just part of the package over there), but he's a really good guy, and while I've only swam one of his events, I would say that he has a pretty good idea what he's doing, and puts on a pretty good event.
  • lcolettelcolette Charter Member
    At this point and after last night's meeting and today's readings 'an organization that works together to serve everyone's needs, is geared to safety/swimmer success/growth of the sport/non-political and fun! just sounds like a good solution.
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    Niek said:

    OOH! How about the American Long Distance Swimming Association? ALDSA? To keep the same number of letters as our British and Irish friends?

    Big job to get Canada, Central America and South America also included.
    I think USLDSA would be better and more fitting.
    Why limit it to America? Think big. How about the International Open-water Swimming Association IOSA pronounced "eye oh saa" and yes keep it open ended not exclusive to marathon swimming.

  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    lakespray said:

    Think big. How about the International Open-water Swimming Association IOSA pronounced "eye oh saa" and yes keep it open ended not exclusive to marathon swimming.

    IOWSA. Pronounced "yowza!"

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    edited February 2013
    After being out of competitive sports for 2 decades (other than trying to catch a wave at Rincon on a busy day) I did triathlons for 2 years. I found during that time that there a number of different types of events. I competed in a couple of small town ones that supported the local swim team, a much bigger one put on by a local triathlon enthusiastic business man and was part of a sports festival; events put on by local triathlon clubs, and some very big ones (2,000+people) that were sanctioned by USAT. There are also the branded "Ironman" events.

    In other words, triathlons have grown not by relying on the support of a national organization. However, it looked to me that USAT was trying to expand the number of sanctioned events. I filled out numerous questionnaires asking if I took in consideration that the event was sanctioned by USAT, etc. For a RD to pursue USAT sanctioned there had to be some "value" added to the event. Clearly the "Ironman" has a great job in achieving that, and their race fees reflect it. On the other hand if they didn't deliver on the value promise, they would never be able to constantly sell out so many of their events,

    I think to a lesser extent OW has done the same. I think that USMS has decided to put limits on how active they want to be in the sport. It will be up to other organizers to fill the gaps, volunteer or professional. I also think there is a potential for sponsorship money. In the 1980's I swam the Bud Lite series in Southern California (independent of the La Jolla & Seal Beach swims). Each Saturday during the summer the event was held in a different town from Santa Barbara to San Clemente. I know USMS would frown on the use of an alcohol related sponsor, but being non-USMS would not have those restrictions on who the sponsors could be. I think I saw one of those old geezer magic pill commercials on TV showing an open water swimmer. Maybe they could throw in a couple of pills in the swag bag.

    I don't think that there is any one answer, and maybe USMS's reduction in its involvement might actually be good for the sport in the long run.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited February 2013
    On a separate thread a few weeks ago, a couple people mentioned the Divers Alert Network as an option for personal insurance on a SwimTrek trip.

    I'm wondering, is there a possible solution to the problem of insuring solo marathon swims with something like the Divers Alert Network?

    The main sticking point with insuring solo swims is the interaction of the boat and the swimmer (e.g., swimmer getting injured by the prop). Diving is another sport where there is a close interaction between boats and people in the water... so perhaps their insurers have figured out how to assess this sort of liability?
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    A lot of the Channel boats are inboards, I assume, so they would be exempt from the new rules. And if they are a commercial operation such as a dive boat or a fishing boat, they can probably qualify for the $1 million insurance.

    Ron Collins Clearwater, Florida DistanceMatters.com

  • VanMouVanMou San Luis Obispo, CASenior Member
    I think, though, that sometimes propellers do move when divers are in the water. There is a method of diving called drift diving, in which the dive boat's engine is engaged, and it tracks along with the divers, who may be cruising along in a current. I'd think that if even sometimes the propellers are turning while divers are in the water, then the dive boats have figured out that this is a situation that needs to be covered by insurance. It seems worthwhile to see if the marathon swim community can be informed by the diving community, as regards insurance to reduce liability.
  • IMHO, these new requirements from USMS could result in fewer boats in the water and therefore fewer eyes on swimmers. That seems less safe to me. Prop guards and insurance don't keep swimmers safe. People do.
  • Hey you open water swimmers! If you have a choice between doing business with USMS and not doing business with them, guess which one I would suggest? :-h
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member

    Hey you open water swimmers! If you have a choice between doing business with USMS and not doing business with them, guess which one I would suggest?

    @BillVolckening, there isn't a choice when it comes to many OW swim events. The new USMS OW rules make it impossable to continue doing business with USMS (sadly).
  • BirminghamBirmingham Member
    edited March 2013
    I have only ever entered the Kingdom Swim. This is the #1 reason I keep up my USMS membership. The other benefits of membership I can get elsewhere for free, I would not miss them. If Kingdom Swim did not have USMS sanctioning I would gladly use the money I saved not renewing my USMS membership to make up for the inevitable increase in cost of the swim.
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