Questions about Feeding

edited October 2012 in Beginner Questions
This discussion was created from comments split from: Nutrition.
«13

Comments

  • I'm using CarboPro or bulk maltodextrin. I'm having two issues.

    First, I don't mind the taste of the feed, but it feels like a punishment to try to choke it down so fast. The feed itself doesn't make me sick, but the act of feeding leaves me dangerously close to a gag reflex. I try to take 50 calories in 5oz of liquid. Any advice on this?

    Second, it seems like I need more calories than I should. I'm only up to 5,500 yards for my long swim. I swim at 1 in the afternoon. I eat a reasonable breakfast and a decent lunch. I have a big snack after my morning yoga class. Then, before my swim, I take 200 calories in 10 oz of liquid. I'm fine for the first mile (a little over 30 minutes), and then I take about 50 calories. Yesterday, I took a small feed at 2,500 yards and another one at the 2-mile mark. Those last two were probably only about 25 calories.

    I used to only take 100 calories before starting, but I got seriously hungry before the first mile and could never get ahead of it after that.

    I appreciate any feedback.
  • edited March 2012
    How are you flavoring your malto? If you don't like the taste you're doing it wrong :-) It should be delicious! I've tried all sorts of fruit juices & combinations... apple-cranberry is a personal favorite. Gatorade could work as flavoring, too. Nick Adams famously endorses Tesco Summer Fruits, but I'm not sure it's available in the States.
  • Thanks. I like the taste pretty well, but I can probably improve it. I use water and cranberry juice. It would probably taste better with more juice and less water.

    It's the gulping action that gets me, though. It feels like a punch in the stomach.
  • More juice will probably help. Be sure to dial down the malto a bit to compensate for the extra sugar. Also....the cranberry juice might not be sweet enough. That's why I combine it with apple.

    No need to gulp unless you're really trying to race. Swim the Suck isn't the FINA circuit :-)

    Re: your second question. I'd also say something is not quite right if you're having energy problems after only a couple miles. Even your glycogen stores alone should get you through a 2-hour workout with just water. Could you eat a bigger lunch? Also try bringing some higher-density calories - gels, or even solid food.
  • Try using a wide mouth plastic botttle put head back and just pour in down...no gulping just pour it and go....you might practice this out of the water first to get the feel...
  • I've never got the hang of gulping stuff down - it just flies straight back up and out again (sorry...). I've settled on a narrow sports-top bottle and just take the extra time it takes to get it down and keep it down. I know that faster is better, but I've never been able to master the super-fast feed. Given that, on a long swim, I reckon it's better to slow down a bit and get the full 300ml down me safely, and then paddle on.
  • Definitely a wide neck bottle for me, otherwise I swallow too much air and can't get the feed in. because I'm trying to suck it. I have one friend who practised endlessly his feeding from a suck sports bottle for the EC, and could take consistently 300mls in 10 secs after practicing. (He'd just practice with water and use unflavoured Maxim). it worked in the EC for him.

    If I want to add flavour to Maxim, I use Miwadi, an Irish squash (like the Tesco one) but remember you can add Maxim to anything since it's pretty tasteless (so tea, coffee, cordial, juice) , and after 5 hours of so, you can't really taste anything anyway. And I agree with evmo, you should have enough energy for two hours or a bit more most days unless you are overtraining and undereating. I have however seen people think they have no energy, because they were under the impression the body couldn't do much exercise without eating first.

    mrfinbarr, it wasn't you I was thinking of with the lo-carb, I forgot you were on that, you used for the 7 mile swim on saturday though?
  • I think we should have a video chug-off... stay tuned for my entry.
  • Try using a wide mouth plastic botttle put head back and just pour in down...no gulping just pour it and go.
    Possibly the most practical skill from my college education?
  • I knew I was focusing on the wrong things in college! As if the liberal arts degree wasn't bad enough...

    I went back thru my training log, and saw that my problems started when I switched to the wide-mouthed bottle (of Loneswimmer fame). I was feeding faster and easier from a 5-oz squeeze bottle. I haven't tried pouring the feed into my mouth. I'll experiment with that. I'd like to make that bottle work since I can clip it to my swimsuit.

    I think I'm eating enough. I could be over training a little. I'm doing a lot of yoga, and that takes a lot out of me. (I can't believe how hard yoga is!). I have a pretty hard yoga class in the morning before my long swim. Maybe that depletes my glycogen reserves. I don't have any other symptoms of over-training, though.
  • @WaterGirl you might also be just hitting dehydration (especially given the yoga).

    I'm definitely a newcomer to this, I would have thought you'd want to be going through a bottle (16-24oz) an hour of fluid and it sounds like you are only drinking one.
  • I most recently used NALGENE Tritan bottles with a (somewhat) wide flip top. I am trying to cut down my feeding times and am thinking about using squeezable bike water bottles. Anyone have any thoughts?
  • If you like to mix with gatorade, the 24oz have an easy twist cap squeeze bottle. I like that when you travel by air, you can bring the maltodextrin without any bottles. You can usually find these in most CVS or Walgreen stores when you get to destination (CVS near dinner in Chattanooga). Drink a little off top and mix right in bottle. Cut the end off a cone coffee filter for a nice funnel. Bring a couple extra filters in case they get wet.
  • edited March 2012
    Depending on the conditions (temperature), I'll drink every 6-15 minutes. Its better to overhydrate at the beginning and spread your feeds as the swim goes on and you are urinating regularly. Once you're dehydrated, there's no coming back.

    I drink mostly out of cups. If seawater gets into it; I'll dump it out and get another one. For hydration, I'll drink Gatorade and Ultrafuel for carbs. I'll mix in water, gel, or some candy only at the end of a swim. I feel that I crash harder after taking gel or other sugars, so I try to limit them.

    Attached is the link to Part 1 of my English Channel swim. At 13:00, 15:20, 18 (good audio edit!), and 20 minutes into the movie you can see how I feed. I don't waste any time talking to crew, because they can't tell me anything that I already don't know. All comms are off a dry erase board with few words printed big. You can't read sh*t down at the water level.



    Chris
  • To Watergirl, I have a Master swim from 5:30 - 7:00 AM 2 days a week. (Plus many other hours/week, but for purposes of this comment, I refer to these workouts) I used to have half banana and half bowl of oatmeal before early morning swims. Then, I read Dover Solo by Marcia Cleveland, and she suggests (with disclaimer about her medical knowledge of the facts) that it may be a good idea to swim on an empty stomach early in the morning and that your glycogen stores wil be sufficient for a few hours. (also as per evmo above) She suggests also that this technique will help you body to become accustomed to tapping glycogen stores in the liver, which often causes trouble to swimmers in the 6th hour, as your body is switching over to convert fuel. I was reluctant at first, I really thought that I needed a good breakfast, sounds like common sense, but now, I only drink water before my early workouts - at least 24 ounces and I have a nalgene of water poolside. This is working GREAT for me! I typically swim 4K in the mornings and I have no trouble powering through these workouts. I have found that I swim more efficiently any time of the day, with less food - then I have a good recovery meal post swim.
  • edited March 2012
    She suggests also that this technique will help you body to become accustomed to tapping glycogen stores in the liver, which often causes trouble to swimmers in the 6th hour, as your body is switching over to convert fuel.
    @nvr2late Small clarification - the idea of swimming on an empty stomach is to train your body to oxidize fat, not glycogen. Glycogen is the primary source of energy, because it's easily converted to glucose - but it is in limited supply. What you need in a channel swim is to easily "switch over" to burning fat, a much more plentiful source of energy.

    Here's the relevant passage from Dover Solo:
    [Mike Oram] suggested that I go into my long pool swims on an empty stomach so my body would learn how to burn fat effectively. Since I did not eat before my morning workouts I was already doing this, thus simulating the physiological condition after swimming for a few hours. My system was already learning to switch over from its initial stores of carbohydrates and glycogen to fats right from the start of a swim."
  • I'll let @evmo ponder the whys and hows for us, but I can speak from years of morning practices and say that I do better on an empty stomach, especially in the morning. Even if I'm going really long first thing, I'm best sticking to mostly nothing for breakfast then feeding on my maltodextrin mix. I've also found that I feel a lot better when I'm eating enough protein, both during the day and post workout. For long swims, i've started mixing a smidgen of protein mix in with my malto. Seems to curb my hunger much better than a gel or energy bar. However, I think every body is different and you have to find what works best for you- trial and error.

    And I mix straight apple in with my water and malto. It's delicious when I'm training and gag worthy any other time....I do not like it less than an hour in. My stomach just can't handle it.

  • ssthomas" said:
    And I mix straight apple in with my water and malto.
    I am totally new to this feeding thing, but what do you mean by "straight apple"? Do you mush up an apple and add it?
  • Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've relaxed on rushing thru the feeds. I'm actually not feeding any slower, but I'm not worried about the time. And I've been pouring the feed in rather than gulping it back. Those two things have helped a lot.

    I'm still doing my long swims in the pool, so my feeds get really hot sitting out there, even if they're partially frozen when I start. Yuck! That problem should solve itself when I move my long swims to the lake--hopefully next week.

    I stopped doing yoga on the morning of my long swims. Since then, I haven't had any problems with getting hungry on the swim.

    It works best if I take 200 calories right before I start and then feed as needed during my swim--usually 30 calories or so per mile. Yesterday, I skipped the pre-feed to try to do a better job of training my body to burn fat. That works fine for the swim--I have a little less oomph, but it's okay. But when I do it that way, I am EXHAUSTED afterward. I have no energy for the rest of the day. Do you think that's worth it?

    I never used to "feed" before swimming--my coach suggested it last summer when I was complaining of fatigue. I take 100 calories before a normal practice, 200 before a race or a long swim. Nothing before an easy practice. When I do that, I almost never have a problem with fatigue. I usually feel fully recovered from a practice by the time I'm back in the car.

  • @WaterGirl, would one of these (with ice) help keep your drink cold in the Arizona heat?

    The exhaustion you feel sounds like glycogen depletion. In theory, it should get better. As you train your body to more readily burn fat, you'll preserve more glycogen.
  • I should get one of those. I guess I'm in denial about the hot sun in March. Even when it's chilly on the pool deck, that sun just bakes whatever it touches.
  • @evmo, thanks for the correction about gycogen vs. fat metabolism - you are right and thanks for the proper quote from Dover Solo.
  • Does anyone drink something warm when feeding such as broth just to warm up your body? I am looking at doing a long swim at the end of April. I would like to be prepared with some type of warm liquid in case I need it.
  • nvr2late" said:
    I read Dover Solo by Marcia Cleveland, and she suggests (with disclaimer about her medical knowledge of the facts) that it may be a good idea to swim on an empty stomach early in the morning
    I have the greatest respect for Marcia, but I found just the opposite to be true for me. When I race a 5K I do so with a mostly empty stomach. When I did triathlons my pre-race nutrition was primarily in liquid form. But as I started training for marathon swims and practicing feedings on long swims, I found I was getting a bit nauseous from all the liquid sloshing around in my stomach. I now start the morning of a swim with a large double serving of oatmeal made with non-fat milk (not water) with raisins and sugar (or honey). This keeps my stomach settled as I fill it with liquids (sometimes unintentionally).
  • I've used warm black tea. Relatively easy to get down (and stay down) and it adds some caffeine. Remember not to make it so hot that you can't get it down or it scalds your mouth. Also, if your teeth are hot/cold sensitive (like mine) the temp difference between the cold water and the warm liquid can be tough to deal with. I don't like warm endurance type drinks: warm + sweet = Leonard barfing.

    -LBJ
  • @evmo - So, that's what you learned at Princeton and Stanford? :)
    @bobswims - I would advise against the "squeeze" bottles, as they can become hard to squeeze when the water is cold (insulation gets all tight, plus you begin to lost strength in your hands due to the cold; already made that mistake once)
    @GKolack - The combination I mention later in this post worked well when heated up during my Catalina swim. I have not used anything else heated up, but I have heard that some swimmers do use chicken broth. Doesn't really appeal to me.. The golden rule is whatever works for your stomach, and try it ahead of time!

    I always remember Dean Karnazes talking about 500 calories, an hour prior to a long work-out. This has worked well for me, and then starting the "feeds" an hour (sometimes 30-min) into the swim. For a morning, or "average" daily morning work-out, I like to take down a sleeve of Clif ShotBloks and a hearty swig of my combination below...

    Carbo Pro (Maxim) + Cytomax (Lactic Acid Buffer) = Perfect. If that doesn't work, revert back to peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and water, as it is God's gift to make us happy. I find that the Thermos Nissan Intak Hydration Bottle works the best, as it has the perfect pop-top lid that keeps seawater out, and the good stuff in. The built-in hard-plastic ring is perfect to attach to a clasp, flotation device and rope. It worked great for me in the middle of the Molokai.
  • I am currently using Hammer Nutrition products for my training; Recoverite after a morning workout (4400-7000 meters), an occasional gel during a workout, and I tried Perpetuem during a 7000 meter swim to see how I would handle it. Does anyone else have experience with Hammer products for longer swims? I'm doing the Kingdom Swim 10 miler in July. Or do most agree that Carbo Pro/Maxim is the 'top dog' in nutrition and fueling?
  • coop1468" said:
    I am currently using Hammer Nutrition products for my training; Recoverite after a morning workout (4400-7000 meters), an occasional gel during a workout, and I tried Perpetuem during a 7000 meter swim to see how I would handle it. Does anyone else have experience with Hammer products for longer swims? I'm doing the Kingdom Swim 10 miler in July. Or do most agree that Carbo Pro/Maxim is the 'top dog' in nutrition and fueling?
    I tried Perpetuem several times last year and it did not work well for me. In fact, in both the 8 Bridges swim and the Rose Pitonof race, I bonked something awful. Out of desperation, I had my support add a Clif Shot gel to some of my later feedings and that helped tremendously. My current concoction is a mixture of malto, waxy maize, Accelerade, a little added whey protein and some electrolytes and this is working very well.

    Concerning Carbo Pro & Maxim: Evmo has made the observation that these dissolve in water faster than other maltodextrins. If that is so, it means that the chain of glucose molecules in CP & Maxim is shorter (few glucose units bound together) than in other maltodextrins. Maltodextrin is not a fixed # of glucose molecules, but a range. I'm not sure what the implications are to human digestion, but perhaps Evmo's friend, Dr. Sullivan, would know. If it does turn out to be an advantage, one might be able to find a source of shorter chain maltodextrin at a better price than CP & Maxim.

    -LBJ
  • So Perpetuem did not go the distance. Thanks for sharing! I'll be doing a couple
    6 or 7 mile training swims and will try malto and waxy maize. Is the Accelerade more for the taste? Are there any particular brands of maltodextrin that are recommended? Short chain vs. long chain? The fueling issue is clearly very new to me. The 10 miler will be my longest swim to date but look forward to doing more.
  • carbo gain by Now Foods has pure malto @ $20 for 8 pounds and I have been using it and seems to work well...I too add Waxy maize and whey protein to the mix....by using straight products I know what I am getting and no more...used this mix on a very cold swim in February...
  • coop1468" said:
    So Perpetuem did not go the distance. Thanks for sharing! I'll be doing a couple
    6 or 7 mile training swims and will try malto and waxy maize. Is the Accelerade more for the taste? Are there any particular brands of maltodextrin that are recommended? Short chain vs. long chain? The fueling issue is clearly very new to me. The 10 miler will be my longest swim to date but look forward to doing more.
    The accelerade is actually for adding a little sucrose (sugar) to the mix and not for the taste. In that regard it is similar to when I added the Clif Shots to my mixture. I've also decided that I want more calories than common wisdom dictates. I've heard figures like 110-125 calories per feeding, but I've upped that to 135-150 calories per feeding (every 30 minutes for me) in 12 fluid ounces of water and feel that works better. Accelerade has a 4:1 carbo:protein ratio, but I prefer more like 6:1 - less stomach upset for me. The maltodextrin I use is from GNC and no idea how long the chain length is. The one thing about waxy maize is that it seems to give the drink an almost astringent feel and can take a bit of getting used to. I add Hammer's Endurolytes to my mixture also.

    Feeding is really the black art of open water swimming and you have to experiment to see what works for YOU.

    -LBJ
  • I will check out Now Foods and waxy maize, as well as whey protein. Appreciate the advice from both of you.
  • edited April 2012
    Leonard_Jansen" said:
    Concerning Carbo Pro & Maxim: Evmo has made the observation that these dissolve in water faster than other maltodextrins. If that is so, it means that the chain of glucose molecules in CP & Maxim is shorter (few glucose units bound together) than in other maltodextrins. Maltodextrin is not a fixed # of glucose molecules, but a range. I'm not sure what the implications are to human digestion, but perhaps Evmo's friend, Dr. Sullivan, would know. If it does turn out to be an advantage, one might be able to find a source of shorter chain maltodextrin at a better price than CP & Maxim.
    Glad you brought this up. Here's my understanding of why Carbo Pro and Maxim dissolve quickly in water, while bulk maltodextrin (e.g., NOW Foods Carbo Gain, as @Sharko mentioned above) does not. (Caveat: I am not a chemist.)

    There are several varieties of maltodextrin. Remember, it's technically a "food additive" - and endurance sports nutrition is just one of many applications.

    The various types/grades of maltrodextrin vary in:
    • dextrose equivalence (or DE. This is a measure of "degree of polymerization," i.e., chain length, i.e., how many glucose molecules are bonded together. Higher DE values indicate shorter chain lengths, and tend to taste sweeter.)
    • pH
    • particle size (measured as bulk density - g/cc)
    • and, most relevant to this discussion: dispersibility
    There is standard (spray-dried) maltodextrin, and then there is quick-dispersing (QD) maltodextrin. QD malto undergoes an additional step in the manufacturing process, called agglomeration. In this process, individual powder particles are "clumped" together, resulting in larger, more uniform particle sizes (note: this is not the same thing as molecular chain length). The final, agglomerated product is less dusty, freer-flowing, and... more readily dissolved in water.

    Here's a helpful diagram:

    image

    How does all this relate to Maxim/Carbo-Pro vs. the bulk stuff? Quite simply: Maxim and Carbo-Pro are agglomerated, and the bulk stuff is not. Does this have any bearing on nutrition or digestion? As far as I can tell, no it does not. Particle size is irrelevant once it's dissolved in water (unlike chain length).

    Another interesting twist: In the United States, most maltodextrin is manufactured by a single company: Grain Processing Corporation in Muscatine, Iowa, under the brand name "Maltrin." While I have no direct evidence of this, it's very likely that both Carbo-Pro and NOW Foods (and possibly even Maxim) use maltodextrin sourced from GPC - just different grades of it.

    The Maltrin product best suited to sports beverages is known as QD M500. This is most likely what Carbo Pro uses. NOW Foods, on the other hand, (probably) uses Maltrin M100. The chemical properties of QD M500 and M100 are, as far as I can tell, identical. Both have DE values of 10. QD M500 is described elsewhere as the "agglomerated form of M100."

    FWIW, I use the NOW Foods malto in my everyday workout drink, and find it perfectly acceptable. I usually make a big batch to use over several days though, so I don't have to wait for it to dissolve every time.

    The obvious next question is: How/where can you buy QD M500? And the answer is, it's available only in two places (ET Horn Co. in La Mirada, CA, and JM Swank Co in North Liberty, IA), and only in 100-pound bags. 100-pound bags!

    I haven't asked for a quote, but according to rumors on certain bike/tri forums, it's $100 for 100 pounds. At $1/pound, that's substantial savings over NOW Foods ($2.50-3.00/pound), and especially Carbo Pro ($9/pound).

    I will try to get Sully on here to check my science...
  • Carbo Gain is a pain to mix. The powder is very light, and it gets all over the place.

    Here's what I do to make it easier:

    I measure the Carbo Gain on a scale. I scoop the Carbo Gain into a glass measuring cup (meant for liquids). It has a spout that makes it easy to pour the powder into the container. My scale has a setting to ignore the weight of the container.

    I put one cup of liquid in the bottom of the pitcher. Then I pour in the Carbo Gain. I mix it a little to make sure there is no Carbo Goo stuck to the bottom. Then I pour in the rest of the liquid. Then I stir it a little more, just to make sure it's not sticking to the sides or the bottom. It dissolves the rest of the way overnight in the refrigerator.

    If you put all of the Carbo Gain in first, it sticks to the bottom of the pitcher. If you put all of the liquid in first, the powder flies everywhere when you pour it in.
  • edited April 2012
    I am new to the powdered feeding aspect of long distance swimming. My local natural food store had Carbo Gain, so I am looking at a big jug of it now. I will be doing the 10mile Kingdom swim in about two months - now what? :-?

    Is there a method of determining how many calories I will need to consume during the race? I swam a 10k last year and was running on fumes during the last half mile since I only used gatorade and water. I have been following WaterGirl's posts, and the label says that there are 190 calories per 1/2 cup (50g) serving. Should I be adding some of this to each drink during the swim? Will evmo lap me?

    Thanks for the help.
  • edited April 2012
    you need many more calories than you think swimming...like 600 to 900 per hour...so your mixes should be rich/pretty thick...I am not sure if Mike Orams chart will show up below but he has looked at it critically...I know I start out with a lot of Steel Cut Oat calories about 1 1/2 hours before I ever get in the water and then 16 oz of feed before I start swimming and the 45 minutes later and then every 1/2 hour afterward....in my view a little better to be over fed and bloated than run out of gas.
    Below is a simplified example of a calorie count chart.
    the 1600 calorie held in reserve in the body is an average figure only (I understand that this can be increased a little by training) again if you know better let everyone know.
    The 400 calories used in 30 mins is based on an average swimmer doing about 62/65 strokes a minute with effort.
    Each swimmer uses a different number of calories depending on their metabolism but it is usually (I think) between 600 to 900 an hour).
    If anyone can enlighten us on the subject please do as it is hard to find the answer, or how to estimate it, on the web.
    I have based the chart on a standard recommended 60 gram (3 scoop) feed of maxium with around at least 500 mils of water - you need to read the calorific feed content and the mixing instructions on the pack of whatever you are going to use. Maxim is quoted because I know it and it's habits.
    Gatorade, Lucazade, gel, gue and all the other multimix feeds need "special" consideration. I do not like them.
    Note there is no electrolyte feed included and spillage and refusal to drink all the feed has been included
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    -------------- Calories in --------------------- Calories used/out -------------- Calories replaced by feed ------------- calories left to swim on
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    About1600 calories Approximate calories used The calories replaced by the Fuel left in the tank
    held in reserve by the by the body between feeds Feed taken by the swimmer
    body at start of swim

    etc etc etc...rest on Channel swimmmer site

  • edited April 2012
    I think feeding is so important for marathon swimmers that I wanted to post Forrest's comments where he recommends a new book out as well....key components for me are getting the calories in and keeping them in!!!
    My well-worn bible of nutrition information is found here:
    Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes

    The title speaks for itself. Don't be fooled by the cover art, Monique goes in-depth for swimmers, too. This invaluable reference book sits next to my swim bag because it covers nutrition from the start of training, through the taper, across the Channel, and finally once you're safe back home.

    Monique explains the chemistry and the biology of proper eating. She explains the challenges of fueling on-the-go. What to consider eating days before a swim, hours before, and during. Mike Oram said it best: Hydration is a swimmer's first concern. Chapter #1 of Monique's book is hydration.

    In my mind, a big problem any swimmer faces -- concerning nutrition -- is keeping fluids "down". For hours at a time, a swimmer's stomach and mouth are on the same horizontal plane. Getting sloshed around the sea surface. All it takes is a little disturbance, and those fluids flow the wrong way. What long-distance swimmer hasn't experience this?

    Therefore, it's in the best interest of every endurance swimmer to "test swim" their chosen fuel. You could have the best complex-carb drink available on the market, but it's all for naught if your body rejects it. First judge your fuel by the label. Which offers a proper ratio of carbs, proteins and minerals? Then what tastes best going down? What agrees with you after 6+ hours of swimming? After consecutive days of difficult training? What isn't completely awful on the way back up?

    Mike Oram is absolutely correct: It's absurd the amount of time a swimmer will put into physical training with complete disregard to nutrition. I believe you ought to "train" your tastebuds and stomach, while you train your shoulders and mental fortitude. In my personal experience, Monique Ryan's "Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes" was the first step toward the Channel. There was plenty to study, learn and alter about my daily meal plans. My second step was slipping into a Speedo and, third, was jumping in freezing-cold water.
  • you need many more calories than you think swimming...like 600 to 900 per hour...so your mixes should be rich/pretty thick
    Calories burned ≠ Calories consumed

    If you burn 600-900 calories/hr during swimming, that doesn't mean you should attempt to consume 600-900 calories/hr.

    There is a limit to how many calories the human gut can process, and for almost everyone it is far below 600-900/hr. Most textbooks (including the Monique Ryan book cited by Forrest) put it in the range of 240-300/hr, depending on body size. This range can be expanded slightly under certain conditions, including higher-intensity exertion, the addition of a small amount of fructose, and possibly cold water.

    Some swimmers consume more than 300 cal/hr without gastric distress. Everyone is different. But for the average marathon swimmer looking for a first-time, reliable feeding strategy, trying to consume 600-900 cal/hr is a terrible idea.
    better to be over fed and bloated than run out of gas.
    It's not an either/or proposition. There's a range of caloric intake that - in conjunction with fat metabolism - will properly energize each individual. Over-feeding and under-feeding are both potential swim-enders. If either one happens, you've screwed up your nutrition.

    Monique Ryan's book is good. Another good one is Sports Nutrition: From Lab to Kitchen, by Asker Jeukendrup.

    I also listed a few relevant nutrition articles on a previous thread.
  • I use the carbo gain and found that if you mix it up the night before, it dissolves on it's own. I use a metal measuring cup and a funnel to get it into what bottle I'm using to mix up the concentrate (I use a base for a 4th workout of 1 cup maltodextrin and 16oz apple juice.) Add the liquid, put the cap or lid on the bottle, give a few shakes to make sure everything is wet and let nature take it's time.

    I'm a lot bigger than most swimmers and my caloric need is higher than people half my size (it's dropped as my fitness increased.) I find I need solids after hour 2 of any exercise, whether it's cycling, running or swimming. In addition to gels (hammer is my preference) I use roasted sweet potato chunks and homemade non-dairy bread pudding (made with coconut milk.) Both slide down quickly and don't bother my belly when working hard. I don't use nearly as much gel as I used to, once I increased the amount of malto in the liquid feeds and that's a great thing ($$$$!)
  • briefly resurrecting this thread..I'm almost out of Maxim and can't remember where I ordered my last batch from because it was so long ago..(shows how little I've been swimming!)

    I think it was a place in England
    Where's a good place to order it?
    thanks,
    A
  • Maxim became impossible to find last year. Those of us out of stock mostly switched to Vyomax Maxi, which is the same thing in different packaging which now includes the huge 5kg bucket.
  • edited March 2013
    In the US, Carbo Pro is very easy to find, and I swear to you, is exactly the same stuff as Maxim.
  • I just can't bring myself to buy Vyomax because of the ridiculous, testosterone-y branding, the sexist website and their insistence on equating women's nutrition with pink bottles and weight loss products. I'm going to stick with PSP22 (now rebranded as GO) for now.
  • Oh groovy, thanks. I'm mostly powered by Metamucil these days,....
    Not a fan of the pink marketing concept either....
  • Steak sounds fabulous right now
  • My wife has me on this low carb high protein and fat diet. I intend on swimming a la Webb. Beef broth feedings for me from here on out.
  • edited September 2013
    Last minute stress over the feeding schedule for next EC tide swim. My scrambled thoughts: I seem to be able to digest most sport drinks without trouble-this was put to test in Sandy cove 6 hour swim, when my feeding bag got lost (think it was in @Colm's trunk) and Bryn just handed me whatever he could find. He mainly shared Rainy's stuff with me (unknown to her) and each round of the island I had a different cup with a surprise drink in it. It all worked, but that was just 6 hours. To the maxim fans: I can't find Maxim in Switzerland, and I was too busy to fuss over this, but it works for me too, so maybe I will get lucky and find it in Dover. I don't use hammer (too many electrolytes in the HEED and perpetuem has whey in it, and it now disagrees. So I am staying with Sponsor competition-high in carbs and lower levels of electrolytes. I saw barrels of it in Ned's guest room, so it must not be bad- or maybe it was crap and he threw it in the unused room. I trained with it all season, with no problems. My feeds are simple. 250ml Sponsor, power gel (exchanging with and without caffeine) and 1/4 of a power bar and sometimes jelly babies. I get hungry when I swim a lot.That all said....I never have been past the 8 hour mark, but I never ever felt sick before either. I am throwing into my feed schedule: chicken soup, black tea with a bit of milk, coffee, peaches, after eights, bite size peanut butter and honey sandwiches (if I ask for it and get really hungry) avocados and fresh figs are on board if my stomach asks for something solid, both full of calories and I like them and hey agree with me.
    Any last suggestion or advice before I pack up tomorrow for Dover.

    Also how often should I use mouth wash? thx!
  • edited September 2013
    I liked warm green tea when I got sugared out (had enough calories at one point and at the end)...just for the hydration and a little caffine...put a little liquid advil in it at the end of the swim....couldn't chew anything much due to a cold mouth (tried chocolate...didn't melt)...and didn't want to miss the tide trying....maybe warm chocolate would have worked???...
  • @dawn_treader I've spoken to several people re mouth wash, and I think all have said not to bother. If you must, use it very very dilute.
    Also I agree with your multi denominational approach to feeds. Whatever gets you through the night is good. Tinned peaches can be welcome, nice and soft with plenty of syrup. I also like Turkish delight, but a lot of people don't.
    However, you should stick to what you've used until now. It's tried and tested and hasn't let you down.
  • I tried warm Perpetuem on a 10K practice swim yesterday and was revolted by it. There's no way that would stay down. I'm going to try warm apple juice next time. And I thought a warm soup made of pureed potatoes and chicken broth sounded good too. Also, I'll try carbo pro. Maybe it's the whey that gives Perpetuem that awful taste when warm. I like it just fine when it's cold.
Sign In or Register to comment.