Kayaks and Boat Drafting in the English Channel

evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
edited February 2013 in General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: Marathon Swimming Rules Survey.

Comments

  • edited February 2013
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  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    Read the article on [http://loneswimmer.com/"]the Loneswimmer.

    What article is that? Please, direct links when possible.
  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    Hmmm, I'll bite. So as long as a 'device' provides some safety, it is ok?
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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    It was an earnest attempt to understand your principles behind your statement.
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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    I still do not see your principle. That sounds like a practical reasoning - fair play. Going with that ... Crossings of the EC in all sorts of non-regulation craft are allowed if accompanied by an escort boat. Where is it written that kayaks are not allowed?
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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    What you have quoted is for unescorted crossings. Where is it written that kayaks are not permitted when escorted by a boat?



    http://www.fullthrottleboatcharters.com/kayak-across-english-channel/

    Kayak across English Channel Safely
    We have RIB safety boats to escort you across the worlds busiest shipping lanes. This is quite a challenge when your in a Kayak that can only travel at 2 -6 knots. Some of the large ships travel at 20 knots so timing is everything. Our rib support vessels are equiped with AIS (Automatic Identification system) which allows us to track oncoming ships from up to 100 miles away and therefor avoid going near them this gives us plenty of time to change your course slightly to avoid going anywhere near them.




    http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2011/10/olympic-kayaking-hopeful-sets-new-record-time-for-english-channel-crossing/

    Olympic Kayaking hopeful sets new record time for English Channel crossing
    Posted: October 3, 2011
    British sprint canoeist Paul Wycherley set a new record for the fastest time to kayak across the English Channel at the weekend, beating a benchmark set by his coach Ian Wynne.
    ....
    On the morning itself we all set off in two pilot boats, one high speed rib and the other a tug boat with a GPS system directing the route across the channel.




    http://www.big5kayakchallenge.com/expeditions/crossing-the-english-channel

    Five members of Viking Kayak Club successfully paddled their sea kayaks across the English Channel on Saturday ...
    ...
    The team on the support boat was having an even worse time as the boats, which are legal requirements of crossing the busy shipping lanes, tossed around in the choppy seas and all the passengers were sick and couldn’t take the video footage they planned. Lance Oram, the support boat skipper confirmed that the conditions were “A little bit cheeky “.

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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-theroleofhmcoasguard/mcga_-_hm_coastguard_-_the_dover_strait.htm#crossingthe
    Swimming across the Channel is condoned if :The sole events excluded from the prohibition are those Cross Channel swimming attempts organised and approved by the Channel Swimming Association (CSA) and the Channel Swimming and Piloting Federation(CS&PF)

    If one looks at the details, the UK abdicate to the French, and the French abdicate to the UK. What you have quoted is what the UK say the French are saying. But the French never say that at all. For details see my post here:

    http://www.marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/345/csa-cspf#Item_41
    Niek said:

    They don't use a kayak as support vessel

    Agreed. But for the context of this forum, the kayak would not be the escort boat.
    Niek said:

    (besides all that you won't find an observer who will kayak besides you)

    Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, the observer can stay on the escort boat, with the kayaker and swimmer in one of the front quadrants.

    ========
    Kayaks are allowed in the EC, as are RIBs. Drafting of the escort boat is an option just like a streamer. It is not a fact due to safety concerns.
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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    I've read it.
    Apparently you haven't read it. France's governing body for this, their Maritime Prefect of the Channel and the North Sea, does not weigh in on who can and who cannot escort EC crossings. Read 15/93, linked to my my post here. France leaves it up to the UK. In practical terms, the CCA and Full Throttle Boat Charters apparently escort crossings that are UK/France complaint.
    Niek said:

    But for the context of this forum, the kayak would not be the escort boat.

    Then they would be an artificial aid and disallowed.
    Right, aiding the swimmer in abstaining from getting a speed advantage by next to the escort boat.

    Again, I concede to your superior sense of absurdity.


    ========

    Kayaks are allowed in the EC, as are RIBs. Drafting of the escort boat in the EC is an option, just like a streamer. It is not a fact due to safety concerns.

    Compared to incidental drafting, how much assistance can a swimmer get by intentionally drafting the escort boat? Intentional drafting is "essential to reaching the record, let alone breaking it"[1]
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  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:


    So if the boat is there it will affect the water and thus the swimmer. For safety you can't have the swimmer more than 5 meter away from the boat. Especially at night.
    So you have the drafting of the boat as a fact.

    Not quite true. If the swimmer is 5 meters from the boat and parallel to it and their toes are less than 15.75 meters from where the bow touches the water, drafting should be fairly nonexistent. Bow wakes propagate at about 18.5 degrees, so the approximate general equation for the distance from the bow where drafting can occur is:

    D=m/sin(18.5) or D=m/0.3173, where D is the distance from the bow and m is the number of meters the swimmer is from the boat (and swimming parallel to the boat).

    However, it is true that the swimmer could be somewhat sheltered from waves/chop/wind regardless of where along the boat they are, dependent upon the direction of waves/wind/chop.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

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  • oxooxo Guest
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    So with your calculations they will have to swim behind the boats.

    Your result is your misapplication of LBJ's formula. If you, Niek, want to swim midship, then divide the length of your boat in half and multiply it by 0.32. The result will be the maximum distance from your boat that you can be in order to intentionally draft, according to LBJ's formula, if I understand it correctly.

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  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    edited February 2013
    Per @oxo's comment: Yes, the intent was to show, based on the distance from the boat that a swimmer was located, how far from the bow of the boat one would need to be to benefit from a draft. This, @niek, was in response to your assertion that "So you have the drafting of the boat as a fact." My point being that you only have drafting under the correct physical configuration and it is NOT a given.
    I am emphatically NOT suggesting that someone swim in an unsafe manner to benefit from a draft.
    Also, your use of the formula is correct and when used that way, it gives the maximum distance a swimmer can be away from a boat of a given length while still being along the side of the boat and still benefit from a drafting effect. Any farther out and there is little/no benefit.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

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