Low Carb/Keto adapted swimming

13

Comments

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    Well done @MvG. Good to hear it went well.

    My next "experiment" (well, besides the 1.5mile 'sprint' this Saturday) will be a 10 mile 'race' in a couple months (mostly a fun relay event, but some do it solo), in which I want to pick up the pace from last year and test my limits and the idea about possibly needing carbs at more intense levels of exertion.

    :-)
  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    @MvG Thanks for sharing that... One of the other supposed advantages of ketosis is meant to be a quicker recovery due to reduced inflammation. This is meant to be advantageous in training but I was wondering if you noticed if you felt any different the next day or 2 after the swim?

    I would also suggest getting a blood meter for testing... I've heard it gives a far more accurate reading of your ketone levels...
  • MvGMvG Brussels (BE) and Lith (NL)Charter Member
    @sharkbaitza: now that you mention it, yes, I did feel remarkably good the days after. While muscles and tendons hurt a bit at the end of and right after the race, I was completely fine the days after, which I thought was all the more remarkable given the little swimming I had done before. I gave the weighttraining credit for the quick recovery, but perhaps it was due to ketosis. More experimenting needed.
  • helengheleng Hertfordshire, EnglandMember
    Update: After 9 weeks on a keto diet I was loosing weight (at a time when I should really have been putting it on) and despite my best efforts I was merely able to maintain my weight for brief periods.
    After a couple of weekends in Dover harbour where I had to get out because I was getting too cold, I made the decision to revert back to my former diet. After 3.5weeks back on carbs I have gained 8pounds which has helped massively with my cold tolerance (the increased water temperatures have also helped :-) ). However I am still almost 1 stone lighter than I was for my EC solo in 2012, so I am on a mission to gain a bit more before Catalina in October ...happy days!!

    Review: I was very happy with the LCHF diet, I had less energy fluctuations throughout the day, my GI distress was eradicated, I didn't get grumpy if I missed a meal time and I generally felt really well on it. For this reason I was very disappointed to have to quit, but I have learned a lot in the process, and will probably give it another go when weight gain isn't so crucial.

    Next steps: Because of the GI distress the I have experienced on previous swims using Maxim & Maxi, I still plan to do my next big swim using SuperStarch. I am keen to find out more about keto-adaptation without nutritional ketosis, because as I understand, ultimately in a swim of 34km, the body will run out of glycogen - so facilitating the fat burning process can only help.
  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    heleng said:

    I am keen to find out more about keto-adaptation without nutritional ketosis, because as I understand, ultimately in a swim of 34km, the body will run out of glycogen - so facilitating the fat burning process can only help.

    My best guess on this would be something along the lines of sticking to a high carb diet till you have gained the wait you need to stay warm and then about a week before the event, go very low carb to get into ketosis. You will lose a few kg's but the initial loss will be mainly water so it shouldn't reduce the bioprene too much. I would definitely practice this 1st though..

    Just a note on superstarch... If you are using it, don't mix it with any glucose based drinks... I've heard biosteel is ok though...

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer Admin
    edited June 2014
    Ok, let me ask one simple question and what I think is the most important and relevant question for most of us who aren't pursuing LCHF:

    How worthwhile is it to use superstarch as primary feed for someone who is not keto-adapted?

    Assume I eat normally (my normal, lots of carbs), including up to the previous day to the swim.


  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember

    Well, there are a few benefits that valid for both keto-adapted and high carb athletes.

    You would not need to feed as often...
    You would have much less if any GI distress

    I honestly don’t know whether as a non-fat adapted athlete, you would get a fat-burning benefit. There is definitely an adaption period to be able to burn fat or rather for your body to see the ketones as fuel. But obviously there is a lot of research still to be done on this. Prof Tim Noakes in South Africa is doing some research high fat v high carbs in ultra marathon runners in SA but I don’t know if this includes supplements such as Ucan.

    But it is something you would need to test yourself... Everyone is different...

    There is another aspect that will need to be explored. What would the psychological effect be on swimmers if you are feeding every 2-3 hours instead of every 30min. I’m referring to the encouragement and interaction between the swimmer and the support team and how the change in that dynamic would influence your mental state.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin

    Ok, let me ask one simple question and what I think is the most important and relevant question for most of us who aren't pursuing LCHF:

    How worthwhile is it to use superstarch as primary feed for someone who is not keto-adapted?

    I asked this very question in a different thread -- here was @DanSimonelli's thoughtful response:

    http://www.marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/comment/12112#Comment_12112
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member
    edited July 2014
    IronMike said:


    So, the blood tests came back. Prior, I made no comments to my doc about my diet (I've found that most MDs are extremely ignorant on nutrition/diet). When she read off my cholesterol (190) she applauded me, because it's lower than my previous reading from 5 years ago (dropped about 30 points). My HDL was high (70's). My LDL was low (30's). My triglycerides were nice and low.

    Boy was I wrong. That's what I get for trying to remember the numbers from memory (my memory's about as long as my....little finger), instead of waiting till I got home and reading off the paperwork.

    But today I was back at the doc's, and she said she had my 2010 numbers in the computer, along with the 2012 numbers, so I had her write them down. And I got the 2014 numbers in front of me now.

    So, here they are. In 2010 I was about a year, year and a half "out" of being a pescovegetarian and eating meat. In 2013 I started LCHF:

    (TC=total cholesterol; TG: triglycerides; HDL: good cholesterol; LDL: bad)

    2010:
    TC: 227
    TG: 125
    HDL: 54 (w00t!)
    LDL: 152 (yuck)

    2012:
    TC: 230
    TG: 101 (getting better)
    HDL: 55
    LDL: 154 (oy!)

    2014 (after about a year of LCHF):
    TC: 198 (w00t!)
    TG: 53 (hell's yeah!)
    HDL: 62 (boo-yah!)
    LDL: 123 (oh-yeah!)
    DanSimonelli
  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    edited January 2015
    Interesting video on this subject

    youtu.be/6WVLrQmnnAY
    DanSimonelli
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited January 2015

    Interesting video on this subject
    youtu.be/6WVLrQmnnAY

    Can you post the YouTube link URL?

    It's not playing on here.
    Error msg says:
    "play this video on YouTube.
    Playback on other websites has been disabled."

    ----------
    Admin note: fixed
  • andissandiss Senior Member
    A good tip is to check out Jonas Colting he is all about the LHCF diet

    Has won ultra man and this summer he swam across sweden - its a man made channel so you can swim Stockholm to Gothenburg, he averaged 20km a day BUT he used fins(!) and sometimes a wetsuit.

    However during races like above he would use "fast" carbs like energy drinks and gels everybody else, rice pudding for breakfast etc etc.

    Here's a link to the swim

    would actually love to do this swim myself

    http://sverigesimmet.se/en/

  • Hi,
    I am a very new member to the forum, and not sure I would consider myself a marathon swimmer yet. I was glad to see the title of this thread, because LCHF/Nutritional Ketosis has been a number one interest for me.

    I had lost 65 pounds about 8 years ago following an Atkins diet, over the years I put 5-10 pounds back on each year. I started back on low-carb diet in early October, and came across the book mentioned above The Art and Science of Low Carb Perfromance by Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek. I started mainly for weight loss. I have been in Nutritional Ketosis since early October. I dropped 30lbs., and improved blood panels: lower total Cholesterol 30 pts. and LDL 20 pts. More pertinent to this blog though is that I truly saw a marked improvement in my energy levels. I was swimming 1 mile in the pool 3-4 times a week, and now I am up to 2 or so. I realize these are modest distances, but the 1 mile swim used to leave me fatigued and hungry. Now the only reason I am stopping at two miles is time available to me, buy it's given me the itch to try for more and more distance.

    I am familiar with many of the references, already mentioned here, but thought I would add a couple:

    There is a documentary "Cereal Killers" well worth the time http://www.cerealkillersmovie.com/ . You might try searching the title as it's been availble for free viewing from time to time. It can be rented at that site.

    There is a sequel premiering in Feb that covers a pretty amazing feat: http://www.fatchancerow.org/ Sami Inkinen and his wife Meredith rowed across the Pacific from Hawaii to California "fueled on Fat"

    Not swimming I know, but like I said it's made me wonder just how far I can go. My goal is to swim around the island I live on 21 miles. I am targeting 2016. Any advice is welcome.
    DanSimonelliIronMikesharkbaitza
  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    edited January 2015
    Sorry guys, it looks like youtube only

  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    Another point I've been thinking of is the psychological aspect of feeding. Bearing in mind, I believe that a properly keto-adapted athlete shouldn't need to feed any more than once every 3 to 4 hours, if at all, as even the most trim swimmer has kilograms of fat to burn.

    But, I wonder how important that 30min feed is from a motivational point of view? Touching base with your team, getting some encouragement etc. Having something to swim 'towards' in a way...

    What do you think?
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    Another point I've been thinking of is the psychological aspect of feeding. Bearing in mind, I believe that a properly keto-adapted athlete shouldn't need to feed any more than once every 3 to 4 hours, if at all, as even the most trim swimmer has kilograms of fat to burn.

    But, I wonder how important that 30min feed is from a motivational point of view? Touching base with your team, getting some encouragement etc. Having something to swim 'towards' in a way...

    What do you think?

    Maybe still "feed" every 30 but water. Certainly, even keto-adapted marathon swimmers need water.
    sharkbaitza
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    @sharkbaitza, I agree.
    I think that's an important aspect and personally I've found it to be the case.

    And as @IronMike suggests, I've found increasing water intake has made a big difference.

    And really, whatever makes the journey more enjoyably successful.
    <:-P
    sharkbaitza
  • MvGMvG Brussels (BE) and Lith (NL)Charter Member

    Posting my first ever experience with Ucan - quite positive!

    Took one sachet (Tropical Orange - revolting!), drank it with 500 mls of water all in one go 15 mins before swim (30-45 minutes is recommended), and never looked back: Starting at 13 pm I swam 10,000 meters in an unheated outdoor pool in 11,7 degrees Celsius (=51.8 Fahrenheit) water, ambien temp 8 degrees C with strong wind, no sun, over 2 hours and 44 minutes. To note that I have not been in ketosis for months (my girth is my witness...), but I had not eaten any carbs since waking up, only no-carb food stuffs, with the hope of getting the fat metabolism going before the swim. This seems to have worked - the swim was mostly easy and at a good constant clip, with an acceleration during the last 1500 meters. Cold was quite bearable for me.

    After I took the Ucan solution before the swim, I was very pleased to note that I did not have to feed once during the swim. I took only a few sips of water at 5000, 8000 and 8500 meters. (In warmer water I would have hydrated much more, but there's very little sweating in 11,7 Celsius water.) Not stopping for carb feeds at my usual rythm of every 15-20 minutes also helped my flow and mental focus.

    My impression is that even for an athlete not in ketosis, superstarch helps stimulate the fat metabolism by not raising insulin levels. That would be good news for people not interested in a LowCarbHighFat lifestyle yet keen to optimize their fat metabolism for very long low-intensity swims.

    So a quite positive first test, but only on a relatively short swim, though coldish.

    I'll use Ucan again next week for a 6-hour swim and report back.

    pavlicovDanSimonelliIronMike
  • SteveWalkerSteveWalker San FranciscoMember

    Hi All,

    A lot said. What is below is from my experience only.

    I have insulin resistance. This means many thing to many people, but generally, when I have easy to digest carbs, bad things happen to me (glucose spike, then drop, fall asleep; weight gain; feel horrible; fat around organs; bad blood work--the list is long). So I do a low carb diet, have eliminated almost all processed sugar from most foods I eat, and my diet most days is about 40/40/20 (protien/fat/carbs), with the bulk of the carbs being veg with some fruit and lactose (cheese, plain yogurt, etc.). I'm 50 pounds lighter since doing this 7 years ago, and my weight has been stable. I am quite fit and healthy at this point in my life.

    I got into marathon swimming in my 20s, but with 3 kids, was mostly out of the water in my 30s, and the weight I'd gained from eating carbs for big swims slowly piled on, and by the time I was 40, I was 60 pounds/25kg heavier. I "quit carbs" (brought my carbs down and eliminated almost all sugars and strarches) at about 40. Started back in the pool 6 years ago, and back into marathon+ swimming 2 years ago. Previously, did EC and many ultra-marathon swims. In the last year, I've done 25 swims longer than 10k, including Gibraltar, a 21.5 miler (8 hrs), and many 4 hour+ swims.

    Carbs most days for me is 30-50g, again mostly from high fiber foods like veggies. On short swims (less than 3 hours), I don't usually feed--just water or sometimes one quick dose of light carb/protein (10g/10g in a liter) toward the end as a treat. i assume that this means that my body is doing a good job of metabolizing fat on the shorter swims.

    On bigger days (3.25-8 hours), I do a feed at 90 mins, then every 45-1h, consisting of 8-15g carb and an equal amount of protein in drink per feed. The drinks use whey and are also sweetened with sucralose or nutrisweet. Alcohol sugars (like manitol) make me feel gross and bloated (in the water and out), so I completely avoid them. Stevia seems fine, but isn't great on taste in most foods (except dark chocolate). Toward the end of a swim, I treat myself to a bar (typically 15-20g each of protein and carb)--it is nice to look forward to. I can't underestimate having a treat near the end (and after, often 2 bars) as a reward--it really helps!.

    I absolutely feel it if I have either too much carb or too much protein during a swim. Protein makes me feel "heavy" (digesting, likely), extra carbs (over 20g or not in a protein mix) make me bonk about 5-8 minutes later--both of these with great consistency.

    I am starting to embark on doing more longer swims (8+ hrs), as I think I've figured out my diet/feeds--now that I've done 8 hours, I'm pretty sure I could do far more.

    I swim mostly in open water (52-63f/11-16c), but also do pool swimming and water polo for cross training. I also sometimes do cold water swims--most recently swimming in Copenhagen--just under 4mi/6km (1:25) at 48f/9c). I don't usually get cold, but I was cold at the end of this.

    Someone commented that you need carbs to swim in cold water. I'd put a finer point on that--you will quickly enter a hypothermic state if your blood glucose levels fall in cold water. There are clearly two factors that must be considered in this statement: 1) how cold the water is relative to the individual's acclimitization, and 2) how well the individual can regulate his blood glucose levels. For a novice swimmer, bonking in 65 degree water will usually result in entering a hypothermic state (and likely ending the swim). For an experienced, acclimitized swimmer, blood glucose dropping a little before a feed during a 52f/11c swim is probably a normal part of a swim.

    I have to say, I think that my experience is my own and everyone is different. At the same time, though, at 47 with this nebulous condition of insulin resistance, others similar to me may find they are in a similar position to me. I do think that injesting a lot of carbs during marathon swims and without protein to slow absorbtion is likely detrimental to many swims, and detrimental to athletes health (probably why I have insulin resistance), but I cannot back up either of these statements--I do hope to read more good science (not the unscientific babble that has been done so far) on the topic in the coming years.

    evmodc_in_sfDanSimonelliloneswimmer
  • SharkoSharko Sonoma County, CACharter Member

    I like Steve Walker's discussion above and much of it rings true for Sharko....My wife Mary and I put together a little simple synoptic for the Marathon Swimmers Discussion group recently...as she is a micro-biologist and understand nutrition from a molecular level...I think we are on the precipice of understanding a healthy marathon feeding regime and individual bodies and certain times in one's life will react to the types of food...anyway here is the synoptic we came up with on feeding/nutrition:

    Simple Nutrition Synopsis

    Food goes in to the body and is broken down into basic food molecules: PROTEIN, FATS and CARBOHYDRATES. These molecules are then used for energy, for building and repairing your body, or for energy storage. If you understand your food intake at a basic molecular level, you can better understand how to fuel your body.

    Your diet must include these three types of food molecules in a CORRECT BALANCE to insure maximum energy and tissue maintenance.

    Vitamins and minerals are not a food source. They simply allow you to get the maximum benefit from your food molecules.

    Proteins are needed for tissue structure and repair. They can also be used as an energy source after you have depleted your carbohydrate and fat reserves. More importantly, protein is needed to make enzymes. Enzymes are specialized protein molecules that regulate all metabolic functions of your body. Proteins are made up of varying combinations of 20 different amino acids, resulting in tens of thousands of different proteins; such as muscle, tendons and ligaments; the antibodies of the immune system and the all important enzyme.

    Fats are an important source of stored energy and have twice the calorie potential as carbohydrates and proteins. While fats are stores of energy, they are also critical to cell function because they make up the cell membrane. So, for good cell function, all of your cells need to have healthy membranes that can easily transport glucose too make ATP energy for you.

    Carbohydrates The carbohydrates in foods are broken down into glucose. Your blood maintains a glucose level, and excess glucose is stored as glycogen in muscle and liver cells. When you use up the glucose in your blood for energy, glycogen in your muscles and liver is then broken down to replenish the blood glucose. Glucose is delivered to the cell when ATP energy is made.

    So the three basic food molecules should be included in you feeding regime and you need to tweek it with endurance fuels like super starch…go on line and do a little research so you understand

    flystormssharkbaitzaDanSimonelli

    "I never met a shark I didn't like"

  • sharkbaitzasharkbaitza LondonMember
    edited January 12

    @SteveWalker I have a theory that the process of ketosis (fat-burning) actually warms the body so you feel warmer in the cold water. Nothing scientific, purely anecdotal. However, I definitely feel more comfortable and warmer in cold water if I have been sticking to my diet.

    DanSimonelli
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @SteveWalker Good add. Thanks :)

    @Sharko Thanks for the helpful synopsis.

    A couple things to clarify for my understanding:

    "Your blood maintains a glucose level, and excess glucose is stored as glycogen in muscle and liver cells."

    Using the words "excess glucose is stored" is usually used to describe that excess intake of glucose is stored as fat (adipose tissue). Just clarifying as the whole purpose of low carb is to minimize excess glucose overall.

    Re: fats

    "So, for good cell function, all of your cells need to have healthy membranes that can easily transport glucose too make ATP energy for you."

    This seems to imply that glucose is still the primary source for ATP cycle. However, with keto-adaptation or ketosis we use the more direct and efficient avenue to ATP cycle using fatty acids.

    :)

    @sharkbaitza I've had the same anecdotal theory! :-?

    sharkbaitza
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    IronMike said: So, here they are. In 2010 I was about a year, year and a half "out" of being a pescovegetarian and eating meat. In 2013 I started LCHF:

    (TC=total cholesterol; TG: triglycerides; HDL: good cholesterol; LDL: bad)

    2010: TC: 227 TG: 125 HDL: 54 (w00t!) LDL: 152 (yuck)

    2012: TC: 230 TG: 101 (getting better) HDL: 55 LDL: 154 (oy!)

    2014 (after about a year of LCHF): TC: 198 (w00t!) TG: 53 (hell's yeah!) HDL: 62 (boo-yah!) LDL: 123 (oh-yeah!)

    OK, so just had to have another blood panel. Since getting here to Kyrgyzstan 18 months ago I have NOT been following LCHF. Still lower-carb than in 2010 and 2012 before I ever heard of this, but as you can see from the numbers, I'm no longer at ~100g of carbs a day. :(

    2015 (Oct): TC: 212 TG: 91 HDL: 59 LDL: 135

    This week I've made a concerted effort to go lower carb. My breakfast has changed from one hashbrown and two sausage links to three sausage links. And when I eat a hamburger for lunch, I remove the top (huge, puffy) bun. But it is difficult here, Kyrgyzstan is carb-crazy (and has stunted growth as a reflection of their nutritional ignorance) and I have trouble saying no to some of their national dishes, like plov and lagman.

  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    @KarenT just published a blog entry that might be of interest to readers in this thread.

    JenA
  • JenAJenA Charter Member

    @KarenT: I love your research. You make the world a better place as far as I'm concerned. :-)

    KarenT
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    IronMike said: @KarenT just published a blog entry that might be of interest to readers in this thread.

    Thanks Mike.

    I commented on the blog post, (from my phone) but I'm not sure it posted. Do you know if it's moderator approval and Karen needs to accept?

    I look forward to following her thoughts.

    I agree first with the premise that the two approaches share the basic commonality of reducing carbs.

    I expect she'll find if she hasn't already discerned that that commonality is mostly overlooked/not recognized in most studies' conclusions (e.g. Forks Over Knives).

  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member

    Hi @DanSimonelli - thanks for reading the blog. The comments are moderated by me (and if you had seen some of the messages that I've received in the last couple of days, you would understand why), but I haven't received one from you yet. Hopefully it will turn up soon - if not, can you resend? I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this and have enjoyed reading your posts on LCHF.

    I agree that both focus on reducing carbs, although the vegan plans are generally more specifically focused on refined / processed carbs (and especially those with added sugar), rather than carbs in general. And yes - both sides overlook the commonalities. I think that this is because they are both heavily invested in their own particularity and radical difference, driving them to de-emphasise the common ground in favour of the key differences.

    Kx

    DanSimonelliIronMike
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Thanks @KarenT

    I hope it went through...I didn't copy!

    It was mostly what I wrote here but some more.

    Either way, I know we'll continue the discussion here and/or on your future blog posts.

    You actually state the commonality I mainly referenced, "specifically focused on reducing refined/processed carbs and added sugars (all simple sugars).

    At least that's how I learned it for LCHF.

    Any simple carb especially induces insulin secretion, and chronic ingestion = chronic elevated insulin which then causes chronic inflammation...hence the deleterious health issues.

    So, I think it has much more to do with this vs the abundance of meat or plant based diet.

  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member

    But I think that the key points of commonality are in their rhetorical strategies rather than their nutritional recommendations, which also contain significant divergences / disagreements about what constitutes a 'good' diet.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    I see that too, but I think focusing on the common rhetorical strategies is...fruitless. (Like my pun? ;) I don't really mean that fully, but had to pun the pun!)

    I think focusing on where the nutritional strategies meet is more advantageous and beneficial for general populace understanding and consumption.

  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member

    Ha - it is a field awash with terrible puns (chewing the fat, fat chance, sugar-coated, against the grain....).

    I guess with my sociology hat on, I'm not really interested in writing anything prescriptive, but am more concerned about how truth claims come to be made and how people understand their food choices.

    DanSimonellithelittlemerwookieHelbe
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    OK, so I did my little swim in a big lake, totally on LCHF.

    Now first, I am by no means a heavy-duty LCHF adherent. In fact, I am probably at 100 grams of carbs a day, +/- 25. So certainly not in ketosis.

    For this swim, the night before I had some mutton (big here) and grilled vegetables. Lots of sausages. Breakfast morning of the swim was half a package of small sausages (probably 500 calories at the most) and one carby breakfast bar (~200 calories). I also drank a usual amount of water or soda.

    During my six hours, I took in ~48oz of crystal lite mixed in plain water, which is something like 15-20 calories.

    I was fine during the swim, never felt fatigued and peed well. In the last 1.5 hours or so I had enough of the minerally lake water in my mouth and had a hankering for either salty potato chips or brownies. I was getting tired toward the end of the swim, mostly because the beach looked like it would never get any closer.

    When I arrived at the beach, my 13-yr old ran up to give me a hug, and instead I stole her small bag of shashlik-flavored (think kebab or barbecue) chips and ate the whole thing. Then on the boat I ate half a package of spicy crackers. So carb crazy, but damn did it ever satisfy.

    I was happy that I didn't have to "eat" any carb feeds or super-starch (like I tried last year...reason for my upset stomach?).

    Don't know if I'll ever get myself into ketosis (I like beer too much) but I am happy that I can apparently swim straight for six hours on what was basically just flavored non-calorie water.

    DanSimonellievmoJSwim
  • NiekNiek Heiloo, NetherlandsCharter Member

    Derailed father. No hug for the poor girl and also no more chips for her. X(

    DanSimonelliIronMikeevmoChrisgreene

    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!

  • robrechtrobrecht Princeton, New JerseyMember

    sharkbaitza said: I was wondering if any of you are keto-adapted? I have been doing quite a bit of research into this recently as I need to drop a lot of weight. Prof Tim Noakes has said that in theory, you could do a Channel Swim without feeding if you were properly keto-adapted so if that is true (and I'm guessing that it would not be true for every keto-adapted swimmer) then a marathon would also be possible. I have been keto-adapted for a short while now and have definitely noticed a difference in my energy levels as I train for my channel relay but i haven't done a seriously long session yet... I have a 5km swim in April so I guess that will be my first real test but was wondering/hoping that someone here had some experience

    When I was losing weight last year, I was averaging a little less than 1200 kcal/day, not necessarily low carb, but very low calories so low carb in that sense and I did all my swim workouts (typically 3 miles nonstop) on an empty stomach, and I usually swam in the afternoon after not eating at all that day and sometimes not for two days. After workouts, I would eat back as many calories as I could, especially fat and protein. A few times I swam 4, 5, and 6+ miles on an empty stomach. I actually prefer swimming on an empty stomach. This worked well for me. Lost 60 lbs in 3 mos.

    Now, a couple of things to keep in mind. Also do some strength training in order to lose less muscle while you're burning fat. I've also been told that there is a rate limiting factor when burning fat. The idea is that you can only burn fat so fast. Trying to push yourself beyond that might also increase the burning of muscle as fool. I don't know if that is true, but a couple of times I did very nearly pass out from dehydration, I think. So, remember, let's be careful out there.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @robrecht

    To be clear, per this topic of discussion, LCHF is not about restricting calories. (Calories in, calories out hypothesis is debunked).

    Rather, it's about redistributing the sources of calories.

    And, sourcing fatty acids for energy is actually the more efficient and readily available (i.e., quicker, more direct) process than glycogen, assuming insulin level is moderated (less carb intake) thus allowing lipolysis.

    Hydration is more important than calories.

    • Way to go Mike! =D> \m/

    On my January Catalina swim, I took in about 30-40 calories per hour of super starch, and I more regularly took water as much as I wanted... 13+ hrs and I was feeling fine.

    IronMikeJSwim
  • robrechtrobrecht Princeton, New JerseyMember
    edited July 8

    DanSimonelli said: @robrecht

    To be clear, per this topic of discussion, LCHF is not about restricting calories. (Calories in, calories out hypothesis is debunked).

    Rather, it's about redistributing the sources of calories.

    And, sourcing fatty acids for energy is actually the more efficient and readily available (i.e., quicker, more direct) process than glycogen, assuming insulin level is moderated (less carb intake) thus allowing lipolysis.

    Hydration is more important than calories. ...

    Are you sure about that? Ketosis can be effectively (and is normally) achieved through fasting (eg, while sleeping) without necessarily fine-tuning among various sources of calories. I don't think CICO has been debunked. It is not the whole story, but where has it been debunked? Hydration is extremely important; I never said otherwise, but that is a separate issue than whether or not CICO is valid.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited July 8

    @robrecht

    Yes, separate issue. I just responded quickly.

    All calories are not created equal. Different calories have different effect in body.

    Initial source: "Good Calories Bad Calories" - Gary Taubes

    robrecht said:

    DanSimonelli said: @robrecht

    To be clear, per this topic of discussion, LCHF is not about restricting calories. (Calories in, calories out hypothesis is debunked).

    Rather, it's about redistributing the sources of calories.

    Are you sure about that? Ketosis can be effectively (and is normally) achieved through fasting (eg, while sleeping) without necessarily fine-tuning among various sources of calories.

    Yes, I am certain now. That is not the case.

    Fasting can result in nutritional ketosis...not due to low calories, rather if restricting carbs to a certain level (generally <50 carb per day) wherby biology takes over and starts utilizing and relying upon ketones instead of glucose.

    IronMike
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    @DanSimonelli, you were in ketosis in January, right?

  • robrechtrobrecht Princeton, New JerseyMember

    DanSimonelli said: @robrecht

    Yes, separate issue. I just responded quickly.

    All calories are not created equal. Different calories have different effect in body.

    Initial source: "Good Calories Bad Calories" - Gary Taubes

    robrecht said:

    DanSimonelli said: @robrecht

    To be clear, per this topic of discussion, LCHF is not about restricting calories. (Calories in, calories out hypothesis is debunked).

    Rather, it's about redistributing the sources of calories.

    Are you sure about that? Ketosis can be effectively (and is normally) achieved through fasting (eg, while sleeping) without necessarily fine-tuning among various sources of calories.

    Yes, I am certain now. That is not the case.

    Fasting can result in nutritional ketosis...not due to low calories, rather if restricting carbs to a certain level (generally <50 carb per day) wherby biology takes over and starts utilizing and relying upon ketones instead of glucose.

    I certainly agree that all calories are not created equal and have different effects on the body, but that hardly invalidates CICO. That's why I say CICO is not the whole story. Achieving ketosis through fasting obviously also entails a restriction in carbs.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    robrecht said: I certainly agree that all calories are not created equal and have different effects on the body, but that hardly invalidates CICO. That's why I say CICO is not the whole story. Achieving ketosis through fasting obviously also entails a restriction in carbs.

    I'm not understanding why to you're matching fasting with ketosis...?

    My time doesn't allow for full explanation to convince you that CICO is absolutely wrong. Please read Good Calories Bad Calories, or truncated version -Why We Get Fat, then come back and discuss if you still think CICO is valid.

    Btw, if you agree that 'all calories are not created equal' and the three main calories/nutrient sources have different effect in body, then that's the beginning of the end for CICO premise.

    I can eat 4-5000 calories/day in proper LCHF proportion and not gain weight (ingesting fat doesn't get stored as fat; excess carbs do!). Whereas if I eat merely several hundred or more carb calories, I pack the fat on very noticeably within a day or two!

    IronMike
  • robrechtrobrecht Princeton, New JerseyMember
    edited July 9

    DanSimonelli said:

    robrecht said: I certainly agree that all calories are not created equal and have different effects on the body, but that hardly invalidates CICO. That's why I say CICO is not the whole story. Achieving ketosis through fasting obviously also entails a restriction in carbs.

    I'm not understanding why to you're matching fasting with ketosis...?

    My time doesn't allow for full explanation to convince you that CICO is absolutely wrong. Please read Good Calories Bad Calories, or truncated version -Why We Get Fat, then come back and discuss if you still think CICO is valid.

    Btw, if you agree that 'all calories are not created equal' and the three main calories/nutrient sources have different effect in body, then that's the beginning of the end for CICO premise.

    I can eat 4-5000 calories/day in proper LCHF proportion and not gain weight (ingesting fat doesn't get stored as fat; excess carbs do!). Whereas if I eat merely several hundred or more carb calories, I pack the fat on very noticeably within a day or two!

    Simply because fasting is ketogenic; it can put you in a state of ketosis. It is the normal way that your body enters ketosis every night while you're asleep. A proper understanding of ketosis and CICO are not mutually exclusive alternative theories but rather complementary. I haven't specifically read Gary Taubes books, and I am not a medical professional, but I am somewhat familiar with the topic, having read a book about ketosis some 50 years ago. I also work with medical researchers, including some who have conducted weight loss studies and specialize in exercise physiology. I was discussing this with a couple of investigators conducting a university-based weight-loss study just a few weeks ago and they very clearly affirmed that CICO is a matter of settled science in their judgment. At the popular level of fad diets and Internet discussions of bro science they might seem contradictory sometimes, but I don't think they are in terms of a properly scientific understanding of weight loss, nutrition and physiology.

    What I've experienced in terms of eating carbs and 'immediate weight gain' can perhaps be better understood in consideration of water weight loss on a low carbohydrate diet and water retention when eating carbohydrates, especially highly refined carbs in processed foods with very high sodium content. That's just a thought, relating my personal experience to my personal experience.

    The experience I was trying to share with the OP related merely to his questions about long-distance swimming in a keto-adapted state, wondering if it was possible to participate in marathon swimming without feeding, specifically a 5k swim that he was considering. In my personal experience, I've swum 5k after a second day of fasting, and 5-10k very many times after a day of fasting, specifically to help train my body to better make the transition from burning glycogen to burning fat.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @robrecht

    Please read GCBC (dense and detailed) and/or WWGF (quick read), and while you're at it: Art and Science of Low Carb Performance.

    I think you'll learn that what we (including doctors and nutritionists) have been inculcated and indoctrinated with is far from accurate and mostly complete nonsense. Generally, "proper nutritional science" is an oxymoron. Bad conclusions based on bad science!

    IronMike
  • robrechtrobrecht Princeton, New JerseyMember

    DanSimonelli said: @robrecht

    Please read GCBC (dense and detailed) and/or WWGF (quick read), and while you're at it: Art and Science of Low Carb Performance.

    I think you'll learn that what we (including doctors and nutritionists) have been inculcated and indoctrinated with is far from accurate and mostly complete nonsense. Generally, "proper nutritional science" is an oxymoron. Bad conclusions based on bad science!

    I may read it someday, but why not also let their own scientific data speak. The results of the first NuSi-funded study (NuSi is Attia & Taubes' foundation), were just presented in May at the 2016 International Congress of Obesity in Vancouver. Here is Kevin D. Hall, the lead investigator of this study, presenting the results at the Congress:

    The results conform with those of other ward studies over the years and thus support the basic CICO approach. If you would like to write to Dr. Hall and tell him he is a bad scientist, I can give you his email address.

    loneswimmer
  • pavlicovpavlicov NYCSenior Member
    edited July 9

    As a biostatistician working in clinical field with 50+ publications, and as person who struggles with carbs, I watched the video very carefully.

    I have couple of notes:

    • there are no statistical findings or analyses done. Only observations as "increasing" or "decreasing". These are not scientific conclusions. In other words, if I toss the coin 17x and count number of heads and repeat it daily, and if I draw on the time graph the number of heads I got each day, parts of the graph will be increasing or decreasing and it can look very similar to what was on the poster. Including the error bars.

    • the study is done on 17 men. That is hardly large enough sample to be able to make an inference of the results to the whole population (but there are no real results, only observations).

    • the error bars (supposedly 95% confidence intervals) have stars above them, suggesting that the data were skewed to the right.

    • data skewed to the right should not be represented by means (averages) and classical 95% confidence intervals. Averages are always following the larger observations (outliers) in the sample and misrepresent where is the center of the data (think, average salary of 10 people among whom is Bill Gates will be millions of dollars even though 9 of them are dirt poor, median would be dirt poor. that is why salary is always described using medians). Medians and IQR should be used.

    • additionally, classical 95% confidence intervals (error bars on the graphs) are not valid for small samples (we need 30 subjects if fairly symmetric data are observed, we need much more if data are not symmetric). Nonparametric confidence interval should be used. How do I know that they did not use them? Nonparametric confidence intervals are not symmetric.

    • random noise observed over time has a tendency to fluctuate (it goes up for a while, then down, etc). In order to correctly interpret the data, the control group should have been observed, undergoing the same protocol (chambers, exercise etc) but without the diet change.

    • it is an observational study that has no potential of discovering causal relationships. In other words we see things happening but we cannot deduce which came first, egg or chicken, or whether they even related (ex. we observe that the ice-cream consumption increases at the same time as # of murders increases, but they are not related; they have a common confounder: seasons) common cause is the season - more murders are in the summer as well as larger ice-cream consumption). He has very complicated hypothesis that includes many causal steps but none of them were proved in their full causality.

    • I am not dismissive of the findings, I only believe that this is why a rigorous statistician should be present on every study so potential misrepresentations of data like this would not happen.

    DanSimonelliJenAevmoIronMikeJSwimswimrn62rosemarymint
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Thanks @pavlicov

    There's more to this than on the surface. Peter Attia is no longer with NuSI...which is disappointing.

    I'll leave it at that.

    pavlicov
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    I can give two thumbs up to the books @DanSimonelli recommends, especially Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. Excellent.

  • JenAJenA Charter Member
    edited July 10

    A scientist should set a hypothesis, and then attempt to disprove it. 'Tis the scientific method.

    Objectivity and findings can become compromised when pseudoscientists promote a specific viewpoint.

    DanSimonellitortugapavlicovrosemarymint
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    danswims said: Speaking of science http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html#more http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-serious-challenge-to-2012-low.html

    First, I realize it's somewhat futile to detail flaws in summary articles about the research (instead of reading the actual study), but...

    This article starts out with inaccuracies in the first few paragraphs.

    "One of the details that sets this study apart from previous studies is that it was funded by the Nutrition Science Initiative, an organization that was founded specifically to test the insulin hypothesis of obesity and related concepts."

    NuSI was not "specifically" "founded to test the insulin hypothesis of obesity and related concepts"

    It was a much much broader mission than that alone!

    "At the most basic level, there are two primary explanations for the ability of low-carbohydrate diets to cause weight loss: either they make us eat fewer calories, or they they make us burn more calories (or both). "we have evidence that low-carbohydrate diets make us eat fewer calories (5, 6), although much of the effect seems to depend on increasing the proportion of protein in the diet rather than restricting carbohydrate per se."

    In all my reading and understanding of LCHF (odd that only LC is being tested! Not original plan for NuSI studies!), it's NOT "either they make us eat fewer calories, or they they make us burn more calories (or both)"

    It was never about eating fewer calories but to eat different proportion of the 3!

    "much of the effect seems to depend on increasing the proportion of protein in the diet rather than restricting carbohydrate per se."

    I have no idea where this comes from when discussing/practicing LCHF. Protein proportion is not significantly increased (slight difference depending on specific activity), rather fat intake is increased (hence actually increasing overall caloric intake!)

    I've learned many things from Dr Peter Attia personally over the last several years, and one of the main tenets I most often hear in my head during this type of discussion: The Scientific Method is too often not properly adhered to in studies, and causal conclusions are made based on faulty reasoning and interpretation of the data.

    I don't know enough to form my opinion of this released NuSI study. But, I hear Peter in my head...saying some of same things @pavlicov posted.

    What I do feel strongly enough about to say with affirmative confidence is, it's worked for me (both for weight loss as well as overall improved health panels!) by increasing caloric intake with fats (reducing carbs; minimally or sporadically increasing protein). And I know many people, personally or not, around the world who have experienced the same good results.

    So, notwithstanding the never ending controversy in nutrition science, I'm sticking to what works for me!

    And I say all this while having just eaten a yummy danish and coffee while being on the Catalina Channel at this very moment, because...that's how I roll with the swell \m/

    pavlicovIronMike
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