heleng said: I am keen to find out more about keto-adaptation without nutritional ketosis, because as I understand, ultimately in a swim of 34km, the body will run out of glycogen - so facilitating the fat burning process can only help.
I am keen to find out more about keto-adaptation without nutritional ketosis, because as I understand, ultimately in a swim of 34km, the body will run out of glycogen - so facilitating the fat burning process can only help.
loneswimmer said:Ok, let me ask one simple question and what I think is the most important and relevant question for most of us who aren't pursuing LCHF:How worthwhile is it to use superstarch as primary feed for someone who is not keto-adapted?
Ok, let me ask one simple question and what I think is the most important and relevant question for most of us who aren't pursuing LCHF:How worthwhile is it to use superstarch as primary feed for someone who is not keto-adapted?
IronMike said: So, the blood tests came back. Prior, I made no comments to my doc about my diet (I've found that most MDs are extremely ignorant on nutrition/diet). When she read off my cholesterol (190) she applauded me, because it's lower than my previous reading from 5 years ago (dropped about 30 points). My HDL was high (70's). My LDL was low (30's). My triglycerides were nice and low.
So, the blood tests came back. Prior, I made no comments to my doc about my diet (I've found that most MDs are extremely ignorant on nutrition/diet). When she read off my cholesterol (190) she applauded me, because it's lower than my previous reading from 5 years ago (dropped about 30 points). My HDL was high (70's). My LDL was low (30's). My triglycerides were nice and low.
sharkbaitza said:Interesting video on this subjectyoutu.be/6WVLrQmnnAY
Interesting video on this subjectyoutu.be/6WVLrQmnnAY
sharkbaitza said:Another point I've been thinking of is the psychological aspect of feeding. Bearing in mind, I believe that a properly keto-adapted athlete shouldn't need to feed any more than once every 3 to 4 hours, if at all, as even the most trim swimmer has kilograms of fat to burn. But, I wonder how important that 30min feed is from a motivational point of view? Touching base with your team, getting some encouragement etc. Having something to swim 'towards' in a way...What do you think?
Another point I've been thinking of is the psychological aspect of feeding. Bearing in mind, I believe that a properly keto-adapted athlete shouldn't need to feed any more than once every 3 to 4 hours, if at all, as even the most trim swimmer has kilograms of fat to burn. But, I wonder how important that 30min feed is from a motivational point of view? Touching base with your team, getting some encouragement etc. Having something to swim 'towards' in a way...What do you think?
Posting my first ever experience with Ucan - quite positive!
Took one sachet (Tropical Orange - revolting!), drank it with 500 mls of water all in one go 15 mins before swim (30-45 minutes is recommended), and never looked back:
Starting at 13 pm I swam 10,000 meters in an unheated outdoor pool in 11,7 degrees Celsius (=51.8 Fahrenheit) water, ambien temp 8 degrees C with strong wind, no sun, over 2 hours and 44 minutes.
To note that I have not been in ketosis for months (my girth is my witness...), but I had not eaten any carbs since waking up, only no-carb food stuffs, with the hope of getting the fat metabolism going before the swim. This seems to have worked - the swim was mostly easy and at a good constant clip, with an acceleration during the last 1500 meters. Cold was quite bearable for me.
After I took the Ucan solution before the swim, I was very pleased to note that I did not have to feed once during the swim. I took only a few sips of water at 5000, 8000 and 8500 meters. (In warmer water I would have hydrated much more, but there's very little sweating in 11,7 Celsius water.)
Not stopping for carb feeds at my usual rythm of every 15-20 minutes also helped my flow and mental focus.
My impression is that even for an athlete not in ketosis, superstarch helps stimulate the fat metabolism by not raising insulin levels. That would be good news for people not interested in a LowCarbHighFat lifestyle yet keen to optimize their fat metabolism for very long low-intensity swims.
So a quite positive first test, but only on a relatively short swim, though coldish.
I'll use Ucan again next week for a 6-hour swim and report back.
A lot said. What is below is from my experience only.
I have insulin resistance. This means many thing to many people, but generally, when I have easy to digest carbs, bad things happen to me (glucose spike, then drop, fall asleep; weight gain; feel horrible; fat around organs; bad blood work--the list is long). So I do a low carb diet, have eliminated almost all processed sugar from most foods I eat, and my diet most days is about 40/40/20 (protien/fat/carbs), with the bulk of the carbs being veg with some fruit and lactose (cheese, plain yogurt, etc.). I'm 50 pounds lighter since doing this 7 years ago, and my weight has been stable. I am quite fit and healthy at this point in my life.
I got into marathon swimming in my 20s, but with 3 kids, was mostly out of the water in my 30s, and the weight I'd gained from eating carbs for big swims slowly piled on, and by the time I was 40, I was 60 pounds/25kg heavier. I "quit carbs" (brought my carbs down and eliminated almost all sugars and strarches) at about 40. Started back in the pool 6 years ago, and back into marathon+ swimming 2 years ago. Previously, did EC and many ultra-marathon swims. In the last year, I've done 25 swims longer than 10k, including Gibraltar, a 21.5 miler (8 hrs), and many 4 hour+ swims.
Carbs most days for me is 30-50g, again mostly from high fiber foods like veggies. On short swims (less than 3 hours), I don't usually feed--just water or sometimes one quick dose of light carb/protein (10g/10g in a liter) toward the end as a treat. i assume that this means that my body is doing a good job of metabolizing fat on the shorter swims.
On bigger days (3.25-8 hours), I do a feed at 90 mins, then every 45-1h, consisting of 8-15g carb and an equal amount of protein in drink per feed. The drinks use whey and are also sweetened with sucralose or nutrisweet. Alcohol sugars (like manitol) make me feel gross and bloated (in the water and out), so I completely avoid them. Stevia seems fine, but isn't great on taste in most foods (except dark chocolate). Toward the end of a swim, I treat myself to a bar (typically 15-20g each of protein and carb)--it is nice to look forward to. I can't underestimate having a treat near the end (and after, often 2 bars) as a reward--it really helps!.
I absolutely feel it if I have either too much carb or too much protein during a swim. Protein makes me feel "heavy" (digesting, likely), extra carbs (over 20g or not in a protein mix) make me bonk about 5-8 minutes later--both of these with great consistency.
I am starting to embark on doing more longer swims (8+ hrs), as I think I've figured out my diet/feeds--now that I've done 8 hours, I'm pretty sure I could do far more.
I swim mostly in open water (52-63f/11-16c), but also do pool swimming and water polo for cross training. I also sometimes do cold water swims--most recently swimming in Copenhagen--just under 4mi/6km (1:25) at 48f/9c). I don't usually get cold, but I was cold at the end of this.
Someone commented that you need carbs to swim in cold water. I'd put a finer point on that--you will quickly enter a hypothermic state if your blood glucose levels fall in cold water. There are clearly two factors that must be considered in this statement: 1) how cold the water is relative to the individual's acclimitization, and 2) how well the individual can regulate his blood glucose levels. For a novice swimmer, bonking in 65 degree water will usually result in entering a hypothermic state (and likely ending the swim). For an experienced, acclimitized swimmer, blood glucose dropping a little before a feed during a 52f/11c swim is probably a normal part of a swim.
I have to say, I think that my experience is my own and everyone is different. At the same time, though, at 47 with this nebulous condition of insulin resistance, others similar to me may find they are in a similar position to me. I do think that injesting a lot of carbs during marathon swims and without protein to slow absorbtion is likely detrimental to many swims, and detrimental to athletes health (probably why I have insulin resistance), but I cannot back up either of these statements--I do hope to read more good science (not the unscientific babble that has been done so far) on the topic in the coming years.
I like Steve Walker's discussion above and much of it rings true for Sharko....My wife Mary and I put together a little simple synoptic for the Marathon Swimmers Discussion group recently...as she is a micro-biologist and understand nutrition from a molecular level...I think we are on the precipice of understanding a healthy marathon feeding regime and individual bodies and certain times in one's life will react to the types of food...anyway here is the synoptic we came up with on feeding/nutrition:
Simple Nutrition Synopsis
Food goes in to the body and is broken down into basic food molecules: PROTEIN, FATS and CARBOHYDRATES. These molecules are then used for energy, for building and repairing your body, or for energy storage. If you understand your food intake at a basic molecular level, you can better understand how to fuel your body.
Your diet must include these three types of food molecules in a CORRECT BALANCE to insure maximum energy and tissue maintenance.
Vitamins and minerals are not a food source. They simply allow you to get the maximum benefit from your food molecules.
Proteins are needed for tissue structure and repair. They can also be used as an energy source after you have depleted your carbohydrate and fat reserves. More importantly, protein is needed to make enzymes. Enzymes are specialized protein molecules that regulate all metabolic functions of your body. Proteins are made up of varying combinations of 20 different amino acids, resulting in tens of thousands of different proteins; such as muscle, tendons and ligaments; the antibodies of the immune system and the all important enzyme.
Fats are an important source of stored energy and have twice the calorie potential as carbohydrates and proteins. While fats are stores of energy, they are also critical to cell function because they make up the cell membrane. So, for good cell function, all of your cells need to have healthy membranes that can easily transport glucose too make ATP energy for you.
The carbohydrates in foods are broken down into glucose. Your blood maintains a glucose level, and excess glucose is stored as glycogen in muscle and liver cells. When you use up the glucose in your blood for energy, glycogen in your muscles and liver is then broken down to replenish the blood glucose. Glucose is delivered to the cell when ATP energy is made.
So the three basic food molecules should be included in you feeding regime and you need to tweek it with endurance fuels like super starch…go on line and do a little research so you understand
"I never met a shark I didn't like"