Lane Etiquette

S222SGRS222SGR Member
edited February 2014 in General Discussion
This saturday morning I went to my local pool and I suffered, again, the dreaded breaststrokers in the fast lane. As we all know, one breastroker leads to another as new arrivals come along and think it is okay to join the fast lane and drift up & down the pool like a fart in a space suit!

Being terribly British, I just put up with this nonsense but I would dearly like to say something to these individuals without sounding like a pedantic show off who is only out to prove how fast I am (I am not - I do around 1:45 per 100m). So what do others say to 'persuade' these lane hoggers to consider the medium speed lane?

Many thanks

Simon
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Comments

  • I adjust my workout. Do drill, lots of kick, find fun and useful ways to get a meaningful workout without upsetting anyone.

    Now, that situation rarely happens to me, so I'm willing to play nice once every other week. If it were daily and I basically couldn't do threshold or interval sets I would kindly tell the lifeguard on duty to do his job before getting in the pool.
  • Our lifeguards are useless as far as it goes with the human water buoys. If you feel is is a naive mistake Just ask them to move. If the are there to provoke, don't ask, tell them to move. If they don't, make them pay by swimming close touch their feet, bump them slightly when you pass- generate lots of splashing to upset them. Two can play this game. This general harassment is not too nice but neither is a fart in a space suit. Just be a bad ass, you have to these days.

    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.

  • I always found that most people I asked to switch were caught out by the lifeguards changing the lane speeds and didn't notice the change. Everytime I've pointed it out most were apologetic and moved straight away.
    Although, saying that I have watched many people enter a fast front crawl lane only to start doing breast stroke.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    I"m with you @S222SGR. I've tried asking them, but always get that look like I'm trying to show off (I, too, am a 1:45/100 swimmer), so generally I pass a lot and kick more than I normally do.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited February 2014
    Not sure how it works in the UK, but in the US I would suggest:

    1. Determine, first, if I actually belong in the fast lane. Avoid hypocrisy.
    2. Decide if this is a disruption worth making a fuss about, weighing it against how often I work out at this pool, how often I get disrupted, etc.
    3. Approach the lifeguard and politely explain that the person is disrupting my workout, and I would appreciate if the lifeguard would suggest he/she to a more appropriate lane. As @Sully says, this is part of a pool lifeguard's job.
    4. If the lifeguard is non-responsive, talk to their boss -- usually the pool manager.
    5. If all else fails, strike up a friendly conversation with the other swimmer. Explain the situation as you see it. Keep it friendly. You may find they're perfectly happy to move over.
    Note: If you are super-confident in your charm and social skills, you might insert this tactic at #3 and avoid the pool staff altogether.

    Main thing is to avoid unpleasant confrontations if possible. It may feel good temporarily to rant and yell, and the person may "deserve" it, but it never ends well for anyone.
  • I would say that evmo is right and I apologize for giving you advice that would just make people hate you, but it is tricky especially when egos are involved and the lifeguard doesn't do anything. We have 5 lanes for different speeds and strokes and though it is posted people seem to play games or they are illiterate. It can be very frustrating. Hope you find a good solution.

    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.

  • We do not have fast lanes, mores the pity. Breaststrokers if given the chance fan out across 5-7 lanes and then mysteriously multiply. Throwing a freestyler into the mix tends to shake em up a bit and they start to consolidate or finish their floaty session.
    I used to be a 'stroker and thought I was reasonably fast. I finally got my free together last Spring and now realize what a pain in the azz I must have been!
  • gtswimgtswim PennsylvaniaMember
    The pool where I swim has three lap lanes at all times. They don't designate fast, slow, water walkers, etc, but it also rare that there are more than two people at any time in one lane. Usually splitting the lane between two swimmers, each keeping to their own side works well.

    The annoying thing is that the "water walking" lane is next to the zero entry ramp. On the rare occasions that is the only lane open I'll have to share a lane with someone either doing water walking or using the aqua dumbbells and making all kinds of waves. The positive I take away from these workouts is I get to practice OW swimming in a lane pool with all the "chop".
  • It sounds really mean, and trust me...I'm a really nice person (endorphins of swimming can bring out my meanness I suppose...) but I start doing a LOT of awesome fly. Right in the middle of the lane. If they don't get it past how much fly I feel like swimming, I switch to IMs, but make sure my backstroke is slightly of center.
    By then, they don't want to swim with me. Or at least they duck when I'm coming . :-))
  • Thanks all. I agree the Lifeguards are responsible but generally they don't want to know or they have been told my management that they can 'advise' a swimmer to move but not tell them.

    As ever, this is something that winds you up at the time but ceases to be so important even half an hour later. I will try and have a friendly conversation next time...

    ...now for the swimmers who stand at the end of the lane chatting like old washer women!!

    Cheers all

    Simon
  • SylleSylle SwedenMember
    After having been in too many situations when a slower swimmer would wait until I was 50cm away from the wall to push off, I've decided to start investigating. I used to just shake my head (whilst swimming) whenever I'd spot a potentially cheeky individual as I arrived close to the wall, but this just doesn't work. After two offenses (when said individual was clearly slower than me) I would just say to them (more or less friendlily) "Please don't do that!".

    Now I'm actually saying: "Excuse me, do you realize what you just did? Because for me, it does not make sense. If you had pushed off a second later you wouldn't have stopped me midway through a fast 100m and you wouldn't have gotten the inconvenience of being passed and squeezed to the side of the lane. So, what was the thinking behind this?"

    I've actually only asked one person so far because I've been mostly swimming with a club in recent times. The answer: "Errrr, I think this was more a case of not thinking at all, sorry".

    I'll keep on investigating.
  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member
    Sometimes, it's clearly a question of a swimmer deliberately refusing to be overtaken / lapped etc, but mostly, I think that people genuinely don't realise what they're doing. In many cases, people think that they're being helpful by getting off the wall and out of the way when they take off just before you touch, and people who are not accustomed to training in a lane with others tend to have a very poor sense of where other people are and how fast they are moving - these are skills that you learn in lane training and are not obvious to others using the pool differently. It's annoying, but I don't think that it's deliberate in most cases. I've found it's quite effective to stop people, explain how they're affecting the movement of the lane, and suggest always stopping to let faster swimmers past at the end. In most cases, this works. I would also ask mid-lane over-takers to show some restraint in a narrow lane; if everyone follows the principle of stopping at the end, then even a full, mixed ability lane can function pretty well.

    As you can imagine, I am a barrel of laughs to share a lane with.

    But going straight to pool staff can just wound sensitive egos, upset those who meant well but just didn't know, and can provoke aggression rather than diffusing it. Asking someone to leave a lane is a pretty nuclear option, I think, in a public swim where there may not be many lanes anyway and gradations of speed are hard to maintain. Sometimes a polite conversation can do the job.
  • It's the people who wait/rest at the end of the lane who stand in the middle of the lane, right where every swimmer wants to hit the wall on their turns that get me.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    Attempted to use your wise words in this thread today at the pool. Guy would never stop. Lap after lap, right down the middle of the pool. All other lanes full. Hung leg in lane as a hint. Didn't work. Stood in the lane (to one side), he just kept flipping, swimming down the middle. I had to be an a$$.

    Thankfully, about 500m in, the lane next to us cleared out and he moved over. I tried folks. I really did.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • ColmBreathnachColmBreathnach Charter Member
    Communication is the key. Talk to the offender first. Appeal to reason. For most "non swimmers" they have no conception of the speed of even normal swimmers. They also have no concept of the stop / start nature of interval training.
    Experience indicates lifeguards are next to useless in this regards.
    My last resort is back crawl. You can be excused for ploughing straight into someone. You are swimming backwards after all and can't see them. Full body length nail scrapes are legit. You can flick water at offenders with a well timed and directed kick.
    Plus it's a lot easier than fly :-)
  • sarmarsarmar LondonMember
    I think I was jinxed by reading this thread yesterday -- fast lane yesterday evening was clogged with breaststrokers (a bother of breaststrokers?) They pretty much covered every bad behavior mentioned here -- pushing off in front of faster swimmers, stopping halfway down the lane, blocking the ends. I try to set a good example by dropping down to the medium lane for kick sets and cool down but I'm afraid it's wasted on these people.
  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member
    Funny lane etiquette story: So I live 200 feet on the "other side of the tracks" from a very affluent town. We have a family membership to the YMCA in that town, even though we don't live there because it is the closest gym to our house. I try to avoid the nearly hot-tub warm pool there, but occasionally in the winter (when my normal outdoor long-course pool is closed) and I can't make any of the local masters workouts, I'll swim there. The people who frequent that Y are people used to getting what they want, including pool lanes. They'll start lining up at the front door at 5:15 (gym/pool opens ant 5:30) and then run and put their pool toys next to their lane of choice while they change. One day, when I was a noob at this pool, I strolled into the pool around 6:00 and dove into a lane already occupied by a middle-aged soccer mom and the following conversation ensued:

    She: "I was here first, you need to wait for another lane to open up."

    Me: "What?"

    She: "You need to leave. This is my lane."

    Me: "I don't understand. Can't we share?"

    She: "No, there's no room. And you'll make waves."

    Me: "There's plenty of room. We can just split the lane, you stay on that side and I'll stay over here."

    She: [very angrily] "No. You have to get out. Now."

    Me: "I'm sorry ma'am, I don't really know what to say. I'm going to swim. In this lane. Right now. You can either share or take up your complaint with the lifeguard but I'm done with this whole ridiculous conversation." And then I swam off. She got out and I could see her yelling at the lifeguard and pointing at me. The lifeguard was looking at her like the crazy person she was. She huffed out of the pool area.

    I see her in the gym from time to time and she still gives me the stink eye 15 years later.

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved
    Tides that I tried to swim against
    Have brought be down upon my knees
    Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @Spacemanspiff, love the story. Had a similar experience in Monterey, CA. I was swimming in a free lane with one other person. I got the half of the lane next to a group of old timers doing their water aerobics. Apparently I was too "splashy" with my flip turns for one gentleman (who was wearing a fedora and sunglasses in the pool, an indoor pool...no sh!t), so he started splashing me as I was coming up for a breath. The first couple times I just thought it was a mistake, but the third time I stopped and asked him to stop. He kept doing it. I stopped one more time and loudly (loud enough for the instructor on deck to hear through the music) asked him to stop. He didn't. I talked to the lifeguard the last time when he caught me just right and I got water stuck in my throat.

    The lifeguard went and talked to him, kicked him out, then spoke to the aerobics instructor. ;)

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • jvjjvj Charlotte, NCMember
    I was a lifeguard in my youth at a 50m pool that had its share of issues with lane etiquette. I did try to help when I could but the sense of entitlement that some of the regulars had was amazing. One woman I particularly remember came in every morning at 5:30 and swam a straight 3k stopping for no one. She was like a metronome with every lap and stroke count being almost identical. But if she had to share a lane she was like a bulldozer swimming over anyone slower than her and refusing to give way to anyone faster than her. The regulars learned to stay out of her lane but occasionally someone would complain to me and I would say something to her know full well that it was being completely ignored. Probably should have done more to deal with it but it frankly wasn’t worth the hassle for the minimum wage I was being paid.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    sarmar wrote:
    ...a bother of breaststrokers?

    @sarmar, thanks for that. I kind of "collect" collectives. I'm a nut for them ("an insignificance of corporals" being one of my favorites). I'll add "a bother of breaststrokers" to my list!

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • There was a strange man once who stopped and tried to block me by doing a floating spread eagle every time he knew I was going to pass him. For no reason except he didn't want to be passed by an old fat woman. (I guess) So When I was kicking off the wall I give him the bird under water.

    I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but my daughter is a great swimmer, and she clears her lane by passing people under water just for fun. Try that once- It disturbs people and they will definitely move if you do it enough. I am not good at it or I would do this. I've watched her do it and it is very amusing. This stress in the lanes makes us all appreciate the open water more.

    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.

  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member
    Okay...ignore all that nonsense about being reasonable and talking to people. After my near-beheading at the hands of a man with huge paddles and a highly developed sense of entitlement to space this morning, and his "I'm training for a big race - you should move lanes" response to my polite request to behave, I say go straight to the lifeguards, and then the manager. Bah.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    I've something similar but in another vane (vein?). I coach swimming for a triathlon club, and we coaches sometimes have to ask (nicely, I assure you) other patrons of the pool to move over lanes because our practive time is starting.

    In one instance, one of the patrons looked at me and said, "Do you really need this lane, there's only, like, six of you?" Uh, yes. We need both lanes sir, please move over. Then the cursing started. "G-d dammit, they shouldn't give you two lanes at this prime time of night," said the guy who gets in for free because he's a resident of DC. He got completely out of the pool and decided to go talk to the lifeguards. I said, "Sir, all these swimmers you see pay to use this lane for an hour." "Well I pay too," was his response, which turned out to be not true.

    It was with great pleasure that several weeks later, due to crowding (24 swimmers in two LCM lanes), that we paid for a third lane. So not only did I get to kick him out of our lane, but it was the third lane, so he thought he was safe. (tehe) Boy did the F-bombs fly (yes, a family pool, and I asked him to watch his language as there were kids around, and he didn't like that).

    So now he just shows up at 8pm and makes sure to get in our lane at exactly 8, which is fine.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Could the pool managers be convinced to post proper lane ettiquette?
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @steven616, at the two pools I swim at, there are posters explaining circle swimming and some other lane etiquette, but I guess it depends on whether or not they'll read it.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    Until this thread I'd almost forgot my run-in with a Cross-Fit cultist last year. To spare anyone who doesn't want to read it, I'll just link it here:

    http://marathonswimmers.org/blogs/ironmike/2013/07/03/crap-week/

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    We almost had a fist fight this morning over who got to use a lane. A guy I've known for about 15 years almost hit a woman who was doing some triathlete coaching and was a few (literally) seconds slow in getting out of the lane. I got between them and told the guy that if he hit her I'd break his arm. It backed him off, but it was nasty.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • Some study needs to be carried out to determine if chlorine raises aggressive behaviour in humans
  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member
    edited February 2014
    Wow, after reading all these comments, I realize how lucky I have it. The patrons at my primary pool, a health club with only 3 full 25 scy lanes plus a shortened lane good for the walkers, are always well-behaved & considerate. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen people patiently waiting for me to finish so they can jump in my lane. I swear I am not doing wide kicked breaststroke or being obnoxiously splashy on turns. I think they are either intimidated by my fierce appearance, or don’t want to bother me during my work-out. Feeling guilty, sometimes I quickly tell them to jump in b/c I’m not leaving soon. When there is a need for circle swimming, I explain how it works if necessary. I am always friendly and polite to my lane mates and to date have never had any issues. (prob. just jinxed myself)
  • Heres a good one from this evening ...
    Please do not, pretty much push your 10 year old daughter into the lane as Im coming in for a turn. I kid you not, she just missed me.
    Then, follow her into the lane and proceed to literally yell at her to swim faster up and down the lane for the next 30 minutes.
    Im not sure who was more terrified, her or me? I know I PB'ed my 1000 yds free thou. So thank you overbearing Mom ... not!
  • I've resorted to changing my attitude since I can't change these lane hogs. I look at it as a challenge to keep calm and relaxed and make to swim in the smallest envelope as possible. Everytime I'd buzz these hogs or even run into them, I'd be the one getting hurt. It's like practice for the melee of mass triathlon starts. Although, my new gym has a lap pool with no classes or schedules...open 18 hours a day for lappers. I haven't had to share a lane in two months. Soo-weet!
  • SuirThingSuirThing Carrick-on-Suir, IrelandMember
    move??? lane???

    you mean there's pools out there with more than one lap lane???

    I tried to convince myself, but, orange flavour electrolyte, mixed with hot chocolate,
    tastes nothing like Terry's Chocolate Orange ....

  • swimmer25kswimmer25k Charter Member
    I'll show off. I swim with a USS team in the AM. We rarely have to go 3 per lane. You can do that when you have 25 lanes. :-)
  • I once got smacked on the head with a noodle. I was at a new-to-me pool swimming in the "exercise lane" which wasn't marked as such and was empty when I hopped in. When I kindly asked WTF?? the guy told me it was the only way to get my attention since I didn't show signs of stopping. :-O
  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    The one pool I swim at has the "Crabby Old Lady" lane. God forbid you try to swim in that lane if you aren't a COL - they make your life a living Hell. That lane was apparently designated as the "COL" lane by divine decree and they defend their turf based on divine right.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    Niek wrote:
    SN4TJ43GBCAY.jpg
    I'm guessing the Aquatics Director of this pool comes from a competitive swimmer background, in my experience that's actually rare.

  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member
    I manage a busy public pool. Here's what we do to maintain civilization in our lap lanes:

    We have large lap swim courtesy rules signs posted.

    Lanes are clearly designated by speed, along with smaller rules tags on each sign that are most applicable to the specific lane, like "wait at the wall for faster swimmers to pass" and "do not push off ahead of faster swimmers" on the fast/very fast lane signs.

    We enforce circle swimming at all times in the lap lanes.

    Our staff are trained on the finer points of lap swimming rules and safety enforcement, so they can identify potential problems and take action before anything bad happens.
    We try to keep our comments to swimmers positive, like "you will enjoy your swim more in the medium lane" and "please circle swim, for everyone's safety" or "please leave the center stripe open for people who are turning, you could get kicked in the [body part] if you stand there". Some of our teenaged staff are reluctant to referee a fight between two adults. We ask guards to call for backup from a supervisor if the conflict is more than they can safely manage while scanning the pool. I've had to threaten a few uncooperative folks with being excluded from the facility if they won't listen to the guards.

    We encourage our staff to get to know the regulars by name and greet them politely every day. Building relationships with the community aids us in minimizing conflicts.

    We encourage swimmers to have a friendly conversation to work out issues with others before they get angry, which can lead to something worse.

    Even so, swimmers will still have conflicts with other swimmers. Most of the time, it's because someone doesn't understand the rules or is "off in their own little world", although there are always a few jerks anywhere you go.

    Ask your pool management to define and enforce rules, if they don't already. Who can argue with safety and courtesy?

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • suziedodssuziedods Mem​ber
    Sounds like an ideal facility. Wow. Safety, courtesy, common sense.
    Where are you??
  • bobswimsbobswims Santa Barbara CACharter Member
    I just told people that I was training to swim the EC. They figured I was bat sh*t crazy and decided it was safer swimming in a different lane.
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member
    Seattle Parks & Recreation- Medgar Evers Pool (fall-spring) and Colman Pool (LCM, outdoors on the beach, salt water) in the summer. Colman can get really crowded on a sunny weekend (people in Seattle lose their minds when it gets over 85 degrees), so I recommend rainy Mon/Wed nights as the best times to swim.

    This year I'm offering a special surprise for anyone who swims to the pool from Alki Beach.

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    @wendyv34 I've been advertising your offer. It is is sunny Memorial Day weekend...

    Unrelated: here's a fun sign I saw in Vancouver, BC last week.
    image

    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.

  • gtswimgtswim PennsylvaniaMember
    My pool needs a "Look Both Ways Before Crossing" sign.

    It's bad enough when an unknowing recreational/open swim individual walks/swims or otherwise crosses a lane right in front of you as you are coming into or out of a turn. It's worse when a lifeguard does it.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @gtswim, that occasionally happens at my pool and I just run in to them. I know, I know. I should be nicer and stop my workout to explain to them how they should get their butt out of the pool, then walk down to the lane they want. But my way means I can continue swimming and teach them a valuable lesson in the form of a streamlined "fist" in their gut or a strong dolphin kick in their face.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • That express lane looks like it's from the Vancouver Aquatic Center. You'll get a lot more serious swimmers there.

    From my experience as a lifeguard, the quickest way to deal with this is usually on your own - by making it obvious that this lane is not for newbies. Make a bit of a scene with extra splashing in your kick. If you can do butterfly, even better. I wouldn't recommend actually touching the other swimmers in the process. Let them know that it's not convenient to stick around though.

    If that doesn't work, just go to the lifeguard. I ask people to switch all the time. Though I'd rather not, unless you make it clear that there are other, faster swimmers in the lane. If you ask them to switch lanes before they see this, that's when you get the less than cooperative responses.
  • lakespray wrote:
    Niek wrote:
    SN4TJ43GBCAY.jpg
    I'm guessing the Aquatics Director of this pool comes from a competitive swimmer background, in my experience that's actually rare.

    Haha, this is from VAC as well.

    CDSC trains there (olympians came from CDSC)
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member
    Getting t-boned while crossing mid-lane is a good lesson for some people. Might save their life some day, since roads are kind of similar to lap lanes. If anyone ever crabs at you for t-boning them when they crossed mid-lane lane, say "you're welcome!"

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • JonMLJonML Member
    edited July 2014
    The last few times I've been in the pool, I've had something happen that I've been telling myself isn't a problem, just odd. I swim at a college rec pool at 6 in the morning. There are about twenty lanes and often there are only one or two other people total in the pool. Another guy usually gets in about ten minutes after I start and finishes before I do. He always chooses the lane next to me and appears to like what he sees (guys in general and this one in particular aren't good at subtly checking people out). With a dozen or so empty lanes available, it's creepy. So far, I haven't bothered doing anything about it; he's never said anything to me, just lingered. (Yes, I can hear most of the female and many of the male members of the forum saying "welcome to my world.")

    I'm open to creative suggestions. I've considered having a couple pre-workout breakfast burritos and letting the chips fall where they may.
  • JonMLJonML Member
    Niek wrote:
    Next time change lane after he started swimming. See if he gets the hint.

    Did that last week. I moved, he moved. :(
  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member
    JonML wrote:
    (guys in general and this one in particular aren't good at subtly checking people out). With a dozen or so empty lanes available, it's creepy. So far, I haven't bothered doing anything about it; he's never said anything to me, just lingered. (Yes, I can hear most of the female and many of the male members of the forum saying "welcome to my world.")
    There is a 50-something married man who swims in my masters workout, often in my lane. We have 2-3 girls who frequent that workout who would turn heads in a business suit, let alone in a skimpy Athleta two-piece swim suit. He leers at them constantly. No exaggeration. I even catch him slipping underwater between intervals to get a better view. Right now we have a couple of high school girls on summer break showing up, and he checks them out, too. He makes lewd comments back in the men's locker room that make most (but not all) of the men uncomfortable. To make matters worse, I bumped into him around town a couple of months ago, and he introduced his wife and two college-aged daughters. While I was talking to his family, he was checking out a table of girls a few feet away!! I wanted to grab him by the collar and ask him if he had any idea of the damage he's doing to his own daughters' self-images and beliefs about their value to a man? Creepshow...

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved
    Tides that I tried to swim against
    Have brought be down upon my knees
    Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

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