Hitting "the Wall"
evmo
SydneyAdmin
This discussion was created from comments split from: What is marathon swimming?.
evmo
SydneyAdmin
Comments
I'm new here and I've read many of the comments. My first impression can be boiled down to "Whoa!" you people are awesome. I don't know about "Inspiring" in that I don't see myself being an "Ultra" as many here seem to be. But you do inspire awe!
I found this site in that I was looking to see if there was an equivalent to marathon running in the swimmer's lexicon. I had been playing with the figures myself, trying to match up the time it took for a marathon runner (2:08 in yesterday's Boston) and then figuring what a mile pace was and a mile swimming pace (world class) and working those times together. I came up somewhere near 6 miles (10K).
I also worked it out v. the calories burned and it came out also right in that ballpark. I'm interested to know which (or a different) methodology went into the 10K = Swimming Marathon?
Co-incident to this is the question of "the Wall". I don't run, but I've heard them say that the marathon is "marathon" because in order to complete it one must run through "the Wall" that supposedly is the end of normal endurance. Do you experience this in marathon swimming? (I have a thousand questions, but I'll leave it here for now.)
Could you clarify what is meant by "the wall" in a marathon run? I've never run a marathon (and never will due to a hip replacement) so I have no personal context to understand what is meant by the phrase. Does it have to do with energy levels, or muscle fatigue, or mental fatigue... or all of the above?
Would you mind sharing your calculations for this? It's an interesting topic.
I've personally never experienced "The Wall" while swimming though that may be due to almost leisurely pace
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Clarify "the wall?" I haven't run a marathon myself, so it will be Wiki that provides this:
Ironically, it seems that distance swimmers avoid this(?) by stopping to eat along the way?
As to the calories burnt: Upon reflection, I think my math was off
From Livestrong "A 150-lb. person, for example, burns approximately 576 calories over an hourlong, 5-mile run. Running the same distance in 30 minutes increases the amount of calories that she burns to 612."
"As such, this person would have to swim for at least 80 minutes at a moderate pace or 50 minutes at a vigorous pace to burn the same amount of calories as an hourlong, 5-mile run." So if you figure the runner is taking about 2.5 hours to run a marathon they're burning 3,182 calories.
If I burn the same calories in 50 minutes that the runner burns in 5 miles, then in 250 minutes I'm, burning what they burn in 25 miles. If I'm doing a mile in 30 minutes then I've done 8 &1/3 miles in 250 minutes.
So maybe I disremembered 9 as 6... I apologize.
@Dredpiraterobts, welcome and I think you are close calorically with the 8.3 miles swimming = 26.2 miles running. As I understand, the 10K marathon swim = the marathon run was based on time. I have been told that calorically 1 mile of running = 3 miles of swimming (I can't remember who told me that).
I have bonked once. It was during a long pool workout (6-8 hours) and a misunderstanding of a new source of nutrition (carbopro). I used about an hour’s worth of Carbopro for the 6-8 hour swim and about 5 hours in I went mental. I couldn't keep track of laps and my physical energy dropped.
I think a lot more runners bonk because there are just a lot more runners doing a marathon for the first time and they have not seriously calculated their nutritional needs. Also, the cal/hour burn for a runner is higher that a swimmer, so it is very important in the short term that they stay on top of their caloric intake.
And @dc_in_sf isn’t as slow as he lets on.
As to "bonking"... dear God, do I have experience with that, having competed in races up to 100 miles.
There are a few differences WRT bonking in swimming vs running/racewalking:
1) In r/r, when you hit the wall, you are more debilitated than in swimming. The reason is that in swimming the water will hold you up and even a light stroke will move you somewhat. In r/r the ballistic trauma of hitting the ground with your feet seems to make every nerve in your body hurt.
2) Unless the water is rough it's usually easier to keep feedings down in swimming. The internal body heat dissipates quicker in swimming and seems to make digestion a smoother process than in r/r. That means more calories to offset glycogen depletion.
3) In running you are often at the mercy of whatever liquids the race organizers provide at the aid stations. No one could puke up Gatorade faster than I could in a long run. In racewalking & swimming you are more likely to have your own preferred drink, so again, you get more calories.
That said, you can, to some degree, train to push off hitting the wall, so it's not a given. Also, the emergence of some of the more advanced sports drinks in the last 20 years does seem to help with bonking, at least to some degree.
Based on experience in all these, here is the official LBJ PPD (Pain, Puke and Death) scale of pain, from lowest to highest:
Regular prostate exam
Severe cat bite
Severe horse bite
Getting run over by your kayaker and then hit in the face with the paddle
Swimming bonk
Running bonk
Jellyfish sting from Hell during MIMS
Prostate biopsy (2 dozen tissue samples) WITHOUT anesthesia because insurance company turds said anesthesia wasn't necessary.
Racewalking bonk (the last 10 km of a 50 km makes anything in a marathon run look whimpy)
3 days of non-stop vomiting after MIMS
Getting both legs run over by a car
Falling down the stairs and breaking... nearly everything
Kidney stone
I will note that EVERY female nurse I ever had during my kidney stone episodes, would look at me and in the snottiest tone possible, say "Well now you know how much it hurts to have a baby" as if kidney stones were God's way of punishing men for getting women pregnant.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Thank you. I saw the General discussion and thought I ought to stay in beginners (I'm a "recovering" postaholic). It's all good to know though.
My first OWS expects to be about a "Half Marathon" then (6.4K). While I don't dispute the Olympic Committee (it's their deal, they'll do what they want) in my own mind, 9 miles will be the goal. Once I hit that, then I'll see what comes next.
I think gregoc makes a good point about the rate of burn being important. My blood sugar spikes such that after workout it'll be as high as 160. Point being that the body is working to replace the sugar in the muscles, but if you're burning faster than it can replace (as a runner would) then you run into that wall.
One less thing to be worried about leaves more time to worry about sharks or schools of bluefish, and lobster fishermen!
I could tell that about dc_in_sf, his head is already where his splash was in his picture, that's momentum!
LBJ, Funny! "'Cause it's true," I would imagine!
I have a couple of comments.
People mean different things when they talk about the wall. I don't think it is any single thing but rather a few things all mixed together.
1. Glycogen usage and storage is part of it, people who fuel well don't seem to run into the issues at 20 miles of a marathon that others do.
2. Traditional training plans often use 2/3rds or 3/4ths of the distance of an event as the longest workout leading up to it. This is certainly the case for marathons where 30k or 20 miles is often the longest single run done. So at about 20 miles you are into uncharted territory.
3. Perhaps coincident with that is the normal mental tough spot of any distance around 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the way through. Sports scientists have found this in events long and short, the 2/3rdsish to 3/4ish period is often the slowest part of the race. It has become hard, but not yet close to the finish to pick up the pace.
Now, as for is there something similar in marathon swimming? I can only point to having experienced point 3 above. At my favorite races I feel it every year pretty much, the Chesapeake Bay Swim, while shorter than a marathon swim - the 3 mile point of the 4.4 miles is the hardest part mentally. At the Kingdom Swim - 10 miles, the stretch from 7ish to 8ish miles is definitely a difficult part of the race.
One other thing I'll mention is that I THINK it was in Marcia Cleveland's book Dover Solo, where it is mentioned that some channel swimmers have difficulty at 6 hours. I don't know if that corresponds to anything in particular about the swim, but that might be a time where glycogen runs low and it takes a while for your body to adjust to the low levels of glycogen from there on out, maybe.
Best of luck in your swim.
In cycling the event was both precipitous and catastrophic. Getting the knock in a race was the end of that race. You could go in 200 metres from feeling hungry, to being virtually unable to move forward. A hill would stop you. A speed drop of 10 mph from 24 mph to 12 mph would not be surprising after the knock. Due to the higher intensity required for cycling, one could not keto adapt and continue to cycle fast while doing so. There were times when it took as much effort to cycle 1 mph to the nearest shop for food as it did the previous 60 miles.
However in swimming, I know that I will feel rubbish occurring at around four hours in training and I will continue to feel that way for about 30 to 45 minutes while I switch to ketosis as I generally don't take a lot of feeding in long pool swims. But unlike cycling it's possible to continue to swim due to the lower intensity. The recovery fueled by ketosis is gradual. For me, it is one of the huge benefits of long swims in training, to be able to time and recognise the knock, and get used to swimming through it.
As @Leonard points out, I've played with the timing of it by completely foregoing feeding under 10 or 12k, and by changing feed cycles. Extended endurance training also seems to push out the actual incidence as does better feeding. I learned the hard way to switch to half hourly feeds 30 minutes before the rest of the seven of us who were Channel training together in 2010 switched.
As @Kevin_in_Md points out, in the EC you may hear from some pilots that the swimmer could go grey at around 6 hours, and this is a visual indicator of the knock, though I have not ever seen this myself on any swim I've crewed.
loneswimmer.com
Since I'm a teacher, "lunch" is at 10:20 AM. I swim from 5-7PM and depending on the time of year relative to a swim, 5-7AM. It is difficult to go over 6 hours since the last meal before a workout on that type of schedule! I went to a runners-focused clinic that covered nutrition and they recommended I eat 4 meals a day...6am, 10am, 4pm, 8pm. I didn't realize until after fixing the problem how much I had been bonking at 6pm.
The reason why, as I understand, is your body wants to burn carbs first. It does not take a huge amount of energy to turn sugar into energy. But when you run out, you have to break down fat, then protein and muscle.
My 6PM bonk caused my body to start burning fat, but since it was post-bonk, I was unable to make intervals that would put me in a higher pulse rate to build endurance, so my training was at a plateau. Also, the fat- burning was not muscle building and jeopardized muscles already there. Plus it was tiring and no fun! When I added a fourth meal for no bonking, I was strong for a whole two hour workout, recovered for dry land training or morning practice.
As a side note about the fat-burning properties your body goes into after bonking...if you can push through it, I've heard some runner specifically go running in this state so their body burns fat first instead of burning carbohydrates. Not really beneficial for swimmers though and I'd be afraid of running off muscle.
Thank you. Loneswimmer brought up Ketosis, and swimchica623 talks of fat burning, I talk of a sugar spike. Are we all referring to the same thing?
"Also, the fat- burning was not muscle building and jeopardized muscles already there."
Can you explain this, please?
Yes - pretty much what I suspected: The so-called "wall" has to do primarily with glycogen depletion, and can be avoided with a properly dialed-in feeding plan. As @gregoc says, the notoriety of the "wall" in marathon running can be attributed to naivete among beginners about exercise nutrition. Pretty sure Meb Keflezighi knows how to avoid the wall.
I definitely experience muscle fatigue after a few hours. Mental fatigue around 2/3 to 3/4 through a long swim - absolutely. But in my experience energy levels can be maintained nearly indefinitely with well dialed-in nutrition.
See, even a skinny dude can effectively utilize fat stores.
Though, I think it's more useful for long training and recovery than for actual race day...with only 2:08 duration!
Bias aside, ultimately I agree with Evan that whatever one uses and figures out what works for them and gets it "dialed in" is the primary factor in any successful endurance endeavor without "hitting the wall".
If you go to www.letsrun.com UCAN is selling their stuff at a discount in honor of Meb.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
btw, I always like reading your Satchel quote! :-)
I've said before that Ucan (or similar) and low carb is the future of endurance sports and still believe so...
@sharkbaitza