H2Open: Do skin swimmers deserve separate listings?

evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
edited July 2014 in General Discussion
Kinda makes you wonder how people ever managed to get in the water before the invention of wetsuits, i.e., 99%+ of human history.

http://h2openmagazine.com/blogs/case-separate-results-listings-wetsuit-and-non-wetsuit-swimmers/#sthash.RHGR8mmP.dpbs

I like his conclusion, but the logic he uses to get there (skin swimming is like riding your shopping bike in a cycling race) is somewhat baffling.

Comments

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    Dammit, you beat me to it, @evmo.

    Besides the bike analogy that makes no sense, I dislike Simon's assumption that because wetsuits help in heat retention and buoyancy, they're safer. I don't believe that's true. In fact, I think that'll lead more organizers to require them thinking they're safer and possibly skimp (a little) on safety precautions because they're requiring wetsuits.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMike wrote:
    Besides the bike analogy that makes no sense, I dislike Simon's assumption that because wetsuits help in heat retention and buoyancy, they're safer. I don't believe that's true.

    I believe that wetsuits lend a false sense of security. I know many weak swimmers in this area who think their wetsuit is a substitute for proper technique. Aren't you more likely to get SIPE in a wetsuit?

    There is a localish 10K river race here that requires wetsuits. The water isn't too cold (70s), but they will NOT allow anyone to swim without a wetsuit. I have asked and they have said there are no exceptions. I refuse to swim the race. I also won't swim any race that does not have separate results.
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    I know we three anyway are in agreement that swim organisers, especially triathlons, use wetsuits as safety crutch instead of pre-race vetting of swimmer experience and capability. As I was reading it, I also was composing a first-draft response, then I got to his conclusion.

    Simon seems to have inserted the unquantifiable "special feeling" instead of the equally or even more important aspects of:

    1: Swimming with a wetsuit is provides artificial speed, buoyancy and heat assistance over skin. This is different from his bicycle example and gradations of improvement that are limited only by money and technology.
    2: We swim year round in cold water, to be able to swim year round in cold water. It's called training.

    loneswimmer.com

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @slknight, I'm with you. I used to coach triathletes and have heard some of them say, before an IM, that they hadn't swum much in the months leading up, but they've no worries because they'll be wearing a wetsuit, so they can rely on that for heat and buoyancy. Sad.

    With respect to Simon's comments, I think he misses some points. Didn't FINA get rid of those fancy-schmancy speed suits. Wasn't one of the issues the fact that you couldn't really say you were the fastest swimmer in the world/country/etc at x-distance if you'd been helped by the suit?

    Shouldn't this be the same? Can you really say you swam a 10K in only 2:10 if you'd worn a 5mm full-body suit?

    At the very least, offer two separate classes. It is NOT that much work to discriminate the results. It can be done with just a few clicks in excel for God's sake.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Buoyancy? I got yer buoyancy hangin right here! No, over my belt.

    Warmth? I am the egg man, I am the Walrus, I like it koo koo ka kool!


    How do you call your self "Iron" man, if you're afraid of a little cold water?
  • 2: We swim year round in cold water, to be able to swim year round in cold water. It's called training.

    I know I'm very new to this ( disclaimer all two of my open water swims have been in a wet suit) but I have issues with the assumption that If you are not acclimated I haven't properly trained.

    I have no access to open water that is convenient to my house (closest is about an hour away and that whole family/job things means I can only do it on the weekends). My pool is kept between 85 and 87. I am currently training my butt off for a 5k swim in August. Just finished 15k yards for the week with two more planned swims (not impressive for most, but from where I started, zero, I am pretty happy). I have also had 3 intense weight room session (did 30 pull-ups this afternoon). So in my book I am training hard. How am I expected to acclimate? I start shivering in 70 degree water even with my wetsuit. Does my need (artificial or not) to utilize a wetsuit mean I am less of a swimmer or that I haven't put in the work?

    I know that I have much better body position in the wet suit and that I swim faster when I wear it. But my body is not efficient at retaining heat and I just don't have the opportunity to acclimate. So what am I supposed to do?

    Excellence is born of preparation, dedication, focus and tenacity; compromise on any of these and you become average.

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    @OnceaRunner, That's not what I said.

    Cold acclimatisation is a progression. No-one is immediately good at it. You train, you acclimatise, so you are able to train more, so you acclimatized more. It's iterative. Maybe cold showers, less clothes, ice baths, OR putting on weight. Whatever. We all go through it and with few exceptions (good or bad) no-one is special in cold water. God knows I've written more than few thousand words about cold water and there are threads here on it also.

    I do not want to measured against a wetsuit-wearer, because I've been swimming in 6 degree water on a rainy, windy February morning when I'd prefer to be at home, and I don't live on the coast either. I can say with certainty that the wetsuit-wearing me of years ago had no idea of the level of commitment the non-wetsuit wearing me requires. But this is a group for marathon swimmers, so there's nothing special about that. Frankly, there's a place for wetsuits, especially in beginning & learning, but this forum probably isn't the best place to find a lot of support for them otherwise.

    Everyone has their own challenges in this sport, (everyone is faster & has better position with a condom because it elevates the body).

    loneswimmer.com

  • suziedodssuziedods Mem​ber
    Why are we discussing this here? Why don't we make comments on HIS site? There are NONE at the moment.
    This is like preaching to the choir.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @suziedods, when I tried to make a comment on H2Open's site, it wouldn't let me. AND I was logged in and I've been a subscriber since the beginning. Maybe there's a problem with my computer?

    @OnceaRunner, when you were a runner, would you want to race against another person in your age/sex group who had a pace runner helping him? or against one who had climate-moderated suit to keep his/her body at a perfect temperature?

    I don't care if there are swimmers in a race with me who are wetsuit-reliant. What I care about is that my speed/place in the race is judged against them and not just against the other skins.

    And what I really hate are races where you don't get the option to go naked. Not for one minute do I think the organizers are doing that because they think it is easier than having two divisions or requiring the naked swimmers to provide proof of ability. I believe they think wetsuits are safer. And that is dangerous.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    suziedods wrote:
    Why are we discussing this here? Why don't we make comments on HIS site? There are NONE at the moment.
    This is like preaching to the choir.
    Because this a more effective discussion medium. Same reason when I started the "110 miles, 53 hours" thread, I didn't send everyone over to DN.com.

    Possibly Simon will publish an op-ed from one of us deriving from this thread.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @suziedods, I just checked again after logging out, closing my browser and reopening. I see now area in which to enter a comment. I'll try again when I'm at home; perhaps my organization disallows something on Simon's page that I can't see?

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • suziedodssuziedods Mem​ber
    oh.
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    Maybe all this difficulty people are having with the H2Open site is a better answer to your question, Suzie.
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    suziedods wrote:
    Why are we discussing this here? Why don't we make comments on HIS site? There are NONE at the moment.
    This is like preaching to the choir.
    A couple of comments now, I think folks could vote them up without having to register.

  • OnceaRunnerOnceaRunner Member
    edited July 2014
    @evmo - I get your point to a degree. I guess, since I am still a novice at my new sport I don't have all of the information yet. Hopefully, I will get there. And other than the wetsuit issue, this is a great forum because y'all inspire me to be better than the day before.

    @IronMike - It's a good analogy but I always loved beating people that cut cones or played loose with the course. It just meant that I trained harder.

    Thanks for the discussion.

    Excellence is born of preparation, dedication, focus and tenacity; compromise on any of these and you become average.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @IronMike - It's a good analogy but I always loved beating people that cut cones or played loose with the course. It just meant that I trained harder.

    You can do that in naked open water swimming, too! Ask me sometime about the a-hole who swam with a pull buoy and cut a buoy in a 2-miler I did! ;)

    Great discussion here all!

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    Yeah, it must have been my work computer. I'm able to comment on H2Open's site now.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • SydneDSydneD Senior Member
    edited July 2014
    I agree that it's bogus to say that wetsuit swimming is safer. I am a "naked" swimmer who chooses my races carefully and accordingly and would hate to be bundled in results with those who use wetsuits. I also saw plenty of folks when I was doing tris, all those years ago, who let their wetsuit compensate for some poor swim technique.

    But, I have to weigh in and also say that I sometimes get tired of the "you just need to train more for cold water" argument that exists in the open water world. I have serious and frequently debilitating Raynaud's Syndrome that is a huge problem for me and has gotten significantly worse as I've gotten older, despite the fact that I have endeavored to do more and more colder swims of longer distances and have really worked on my cold water tolerance. It hurts. A lot. And it is a constant for me to the extent that my family worries quite a bit and my son is constantly trying to shove hot water bottles at me.

    I have it year round, my hands become an unusable claw and sometimes, the discoloration starts to spread up my arm. I can't really use my feet at all when it happens, and it is even more painful upon exiting the water. During C3 last year, I had to attempt to warm my hands by any number of means that you do not want me to detail here, the nicest of which was sticking them in my hot feeds. At a few points, I considered leaving the swim because it was so painful---and not in the "push through it" way. And warming my core with hot feeds internally does not seem to help it.

    I just get frustrated with the pervasive idea that I'm not training enough for cold water. If it were a matter of acclimation, I'd be doing it. If putting a few pounds on would help it, I'd try to do it. Instead, it's important for my health that I choose races appropriately because I want to have longevity in this sport I adore.

    Can folks with severe Raynaud's acclimate in some ways to some conditions? Yes, to a certain extent some folks have had success. But that's for people who are symptomatic and then moving immediately to a warm environment, not folks staying in the cold water for 15 miles and many, many hours.

    If I'm wrong, and any of you have trained your way out of the white, yellow and purple "Raynaud's claw" then I'd love to know how you did it so I can get on that train! Otherwise, remember that for some of us, it's not just about sucking it up and training our way through it. And it doesn't mean we are wimps if we make water temp choices that work for our bodies.
    Theoystercatcher
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    edited July 2014
    @SydneD, my son has Reynaud's. It was one of the items I was thinking of when I wrote above "with few exceptions (good or bad)", because I'm pretty familiar with the condition and its effects and the care that had to be taken with him and how it still affects him.

    Like a Channel swimming friend who is almost 7 feet tall and has a natural cold water advantage (due to body surface to volume ratio allowing them to hold onto heat longer), Reynaud's is an outlier disadvantage, and in my son's case it would preclude him ever being a cold water swimmer.

    The existence of Reynaud's doesn't in any way change the general contention for cold water training and swimming. If it's too cold for a sufferer, then that's understandable, the solution isn't to allow the sufferer to wear a wetsuit and then say they and I are equal in a race. You train for cold by getting cold. What I haven't done, is say anyone is a wimp for choosing a particular lower water temperature and in fact in the Ice Mile discussion I make the point about how dangerous really cold water swimming can be for anyone. I don't believe that everyone can and should "go colder".

    loneswimmer.com

  • SydneDSydneD Senior Member
    Totally agreed. The acclimation process is an important one and I work on that to the best of my ability. As you know from your son, there are limits to how much that works for someone like me. (Why did I choose this crazy sport again?)

    And I agree that wetsuits, if permitted, need to be a different category altogether. I just did a race two weeks ago and after it, a woman in a wetsuit came to tell me she had drafted me the entire time, used my sighting as her guide, and spent her swim trying to catch me. If we had been considered equivalent, it would not have been fair.

    If you and your son ever find something that works for him, I'd love to know! Always looking for new ways to beat this silly thing---or at least, help me push through that cold water business more effectively. Until then, I'll opt for those Caribbean swims. Which really--isn't such a bad option. ;)
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    It's disappointing, though not surprising, that the editor of a magazine about Open Water Swimming would write an article that seems to equate the sport to "Triathlon without the Bike and Run."

    Simon comes from a triathlon background. So I guess he sees OWS through that lens. For someone in Simon's position, the most obvious target demographic for growing circulation is people coming from triathlon. Notice how the vast majority of H2Open issue covers feature people in wetsuits.

    Still, this worldview can't go unchallenged. Open water swimming existed and thrived long before triathlon ever existed, long before wetsuits were invented. Swimming unassisted isn't a quirky preference. It is the standard.
  • tortugatortuga Senior Member
    I come from a triathlon background and originally, I felt much more comfy in my wetsuit. Psychological support if nothing else. As I became more comfortable in OW and with my increasing skill, the suit was no longer necessary. (I do believe the stats show that a suit increases speed so if you're competing and folks are wearing suits they have an advantage.)

    IMHO, if we're gonna graduate from triathlon to marathon swimming, we need to give up our sacurity blankets and play with the big kids. However, if suits are allowed, they should not be in the same category as the marathon swimmers competing in the same event.

  • Hi folks -
    Long time lurker, first time poster and when I seen this topic I had to break that duck...

    Gotta say, I read that H2Open blog post and immediately thought 'you're getting skewered!' :)

    It's fair to say it isn't exactly the most well thought out piece ever written. I'd swim a fair bit with a suit and have massive respect for lads and ladies that swim year round in only the smugglers and I don't see why you can't have the results broken down.

    It's a much fairer assessment to see how you've gotten on against people swimming in similar situations and setups to you than against something who is perceived to have an advantage - most races results are also broken down into mens and womens categories, so whats the big deal with not doing the same for suits v skins? If anything it sounds like there's a few lazy organisers who've said 'here, Simon, do us a favour and flag up we won't be doing a breakdown for our races'.

    As regard to the 'unquantifiable feeling' - each to their own. If you're the kind of person that feels the need to lord it over someone else who does or doesn't wear a suit, you need to be having a word with yourself.
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    @evmo did an analysis of his own speeds while wearing a wetsuit over the course of a seven one mile swims in 2012. Like most here, I usually say about 4 secs per 100m. In @evmo's case, it was over 5 secs per 100m, 7% bump. This may be measurement error for a variety of reasons, or due to the fact that, since he is already a fast swimmer, he gets even more benefit from increased buoyancy (reduced pressure & surface drag effects) than a slower swimmer.

    loneswimmer.com

  • This may be measurement error for a variety of reasons, or due to the fact that, since he is already a fast swimmer, he gets even more benefit from increased buoyancy (reduced pressure & surface drag effects) than a slower swimmer.

    I have actually heard just the opposite and have experienced it anecdotally. Slower swimmers tend to get more benefit than faster swimmers because slower swimmers are assisted more from improvement in body position. Faster swimmers tend to already have good body position. Anyone have any evidence of this?
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    @slkknight. Yes you are correct, I wasn't thinking clearly.

    For a slow swimmer the primary drag effect is pressure drag. Increasing buoyancy reduces this by presenting a smaller area for drag. At higher speeds the drag effect is friction. I think I was thinking/guessing the advantage of a wetsuit, in the difference between say me and @evmo, rather than between @evmo and a slow beginner (slow swimmer = < 1 metre per second according to Gary Hall Snr), because it'll benefit @evmo more in friction drag reduction than me. Friction reduction was the first reason for the introduction of tech suits, back when Speedo used to talk about the shark-skin-like properties of the textile and why they benefit faster swimmers more than slower swimmers (i.e. Ian Thorpe). Later they added compression which also reduced the other drag effects also.

    loneswimmer.com

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    No evidence, but I saw several of my triathletes swim a lot faster in Olympic distance tri-swims than in practice. I'm talking on the order of 5-7 minutes than what our work in the pool led me to expect. My only guess was that the wetsuit helped them. That much time over such a short distance is significant, esp. taking into consideration OW conditions. When they are averaging 2:20 / 100m (LCM) in the pool for a set of 3 x 300, then swim the 1500 in 30 minutes, well I call that a significant benefit from the wetsuit.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    Several things to keep in mind:
    1) The guy writing the piece is (I think) British and is writing from the perspective of having to deal with colder water, on average, than here in the U.S. Given that, it probably is more reasonable to expect that growth in the sport there would be focused on people wearing wetsuits and that would mean the focus of the awards would probably be on those in neoprene as well.
    2) We are the outliers. We are the loons who will do the cold adaptation training, gain bioprene, etc to fit the vision of what we see the sport as being. The "average" person will not see it that way, doubly so since many of them are coming in via the triathlon axis (of evil). Most of these people want to have the experience of open water swimming, but don't embed themselves in the lifestyle as do many of us here.
    3) Marathon swimming is a proper subset of open-water swimming. Most of what I think he was writing about deals with events that aren't, in fact, what we would call marathon swims. That's not to say that the larger OWS mindset can't "pollute" our little pond, but let's face the fact that most people really don't care about ever swimming in our pond.
    4) Many events, and especially the shorter ones, are charity fund-raisers and the equation is more bodies = more $$$ raised. And Wetsuits = more bodies and therefore (by the transitivity of equality) Wetsuits = more $$$ raised. You could probably even carry it further by saying that more awards for wetsuits = more wetsuits = more bodies = more $$$ raised. I don't think the same could be said for non-wetsuit awards - at least not to the same absolute numbers of bodies.

    Regardless, I am, of course, all for awards for non-wetsuit people that are separate from the wuss....errrr..... wetsuit people awards.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • edited July 2014
    When you post results do you have an overall first finisher? And if the race is mixed, the chances are that the winner is the wetsuited guy/gal?

    Therein lies the rub(ber). (S)He won. Period. Unless you have some way to equalize the results (figure the wetsuited swimmer at 110% of their actual time and the neked swimmer at 100%, for example) the answer is that the WSS has the headline. You were neked, 5 seconds behind wetsuit Willie at 10K? Doesn't matter, the other swimmer got there first. (edit: please keep in mind that I'm not saying the wetsuited swimmer should be the winner, only that that is name in the Win column)

    You can make a category (or 4... M Naked, F Naked, M Wetsuit, F Wetsuit), but if your contest has an "Overall Winner" the categories are for naught (all else being even).
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    Several things to keep in mind:
    1) The guy writing the piece is (I think) British and is writing from the perspective of having to deal with colder water, on average, than here in the U.S. Given that, it probably is more reasonable to expect that growth in the sport there would be focused on people wearing wetsuits and that would mean the focus of the awards would probably be on those in neoprene as well.
    2) We are the outliers. We are the loons who will do the cold adaptation training, gain bioprene, etc to fit the vision of what we see the sport as being. The "average" person will not see it that way, doubly so since many of them are coming in via the triathlon axis (of evil). Most of these people want to have the experience of open water swimming, but don't embed themselves in the lifestyle as do many of us here.
    3) Marathon swimming is a proper subset of open-water swimming. Most of what I think he was writing about deals with events that aren't, in fact, what we would call marathon swims. That's not to say that the larger OWS mindset can't "pollute" our little pond, but let's face the fact that most people really don't care about ever swimming in our pond.
    When I look at open water culture in America I would note that along the California coast from San Diego to San Francisco that swimmers have been braving the Pacific ocean for a century without wetsuits.

    Even in San Diego in the summer the water temp generally doesn’t exceed 20C and if it does it’s not for long. The next incarnation of the La Jolla Rough Water Swim will be the 84th running and all one has to do is go into the Aquatic Park clubs and look at the photo’s on the wall. Additionally in the lake country of Minnesota to Michigan to New England in the northern parts of the U.S., people have been swimming in cool lakes long before the swimming wetsuit was invented. So maybe today were outliers but that wasn’t always the case.
    evmo wrote:
    Still, this worldview can't go unchallenged. Open water swimming existed and thrived long before triathlon ever existed, long before wetsuits were invented. Swimming unassisted isn't a quirky preference. It is the standard.
    Agreed.


  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member
    I don't have anything against wearing wetsuits. Everyone should approach the water in a manner that they feel is tolerable and safe. That being said, races should absolutely provide separate categories for naked and neoprene swimmers.

    From what I've observed, (comparing results with people I swim against regularly) a wetsuit provides a 2-6 minute/mile advantage for most swimmers. I only get about 20-40 seconds per mile, (not to mention that I hate the sensation of swimming in a wetsuit), so I prefer to swim in a naked category whenever I can. If I have to swim against wetsuited swimmers counted in the same category, I don't consider them having beaten me unless they are going at least 3 minutes/mile faster than I am and have beaten me in fair competition elsewhere.

    I believe first overall should go to the top naked swimmers or wetsuited swimmers should face a time penalty if competition is to be direct.

    At the Emerald City OWS, (Seattle, WA), we offer age group and overall awards for naked swimmers. There is a category for wetsuits, which is treated as if it's another age group, but swimmers wearing wetsuits are not eligible for overall awards. This is the 30th year for the event and most years, the water is warm enough that very few choose to use wetsuits.

    At the Cascade Lakes Swim Series (Bend, OR, USMS sanctioned), swimmers can swim any or all of the 5 races offered over the weekend. Swimmers can choose between the long (1.5K, 3K, 5K) or short (500m, 1K, 1.5K) series. Individual races have separate categories for naked/wetsuits, but for series points, swimmers incur a 10% time penalty for wearing a wetsuit. The event is hosting the USMS 5K Nationals this year and wetsuited swimmers will be swimming in a separate (non-Nationals) wave, which I applaud. I personally love this event and encourage anyone who can make it to come. It's not just a swim, it's a big campout for swimmers. Tons of fun and a great place to make friends.

    I boycott races when I don't agree with the rules (like towing mandatory orange floats!) or I accept that the playing field isn't going to be level and the results aren't really legit.

    Let race directors know what you want, tell them why you are boycotting their race. If nobody complains, they will continue to do whatever they can to boost their participation (and profits). I'm not against increasing participation (as long as participants are able to safely complete the course), but if an event director is billing the event as a race, then a race should be fair to all entrants.

    Swimming is a skill, developed over years of hard work and maximum potential ultimately is determined by talent. Let's keep the swimming in open water swimming!

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

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