Mike Oram's EC "Benchmark Set"
evmo
SydneyAdmin
This discussion was created from comments split from: The Animal Set Thread.
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We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
If you need a nutrition scientist, hire a nutrition scientist. Or read a book
If you need a boat pilot, hire Mike O. Or one of the many other fine CS&PF gentlemen.
Mr. Oram further advises:
My understanding is this is just Capt O's assessment of the speed it takes to swim the EC. It does not take into account other factors of conditioning.
...and needless to say, many swimmers in the "struggling" category have had successful crossings and many in the upper bracket have not.
Mike O would be the first to declare that this set is but a small piece of the puzzle.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
As such it is important that the set, y'know, measure something. What is the focus? What is the point?
The best test sets are very simple; easily memorized; easily tracked over time.
For example, a useful test set for mid-distance pool specialists (200-400m) is the "Broken 200" or "Broken 400." 4x50 or 4x100, 10 seconds rest between each 50 or 100. Add up your total time, subtract 30 seconds, and that's your benchmark. The focus is going as fast as possible, and properly pacing oneself. Your "Broken" time will approximate what you might do for the straight 200 or 400 with a taper & shave.
A useful test set for slightly longer swims might be: 10x100 on the fastest interval possible. The benchmark is the interval itself - very simple, easily tracked over time.
A useful benchmark for swims in the Ironman--> 5km range might be a T30 or T60 (as far as possible in 30 minutes, or 60 minutes). Simple, easily tracked over time.
In training for a 15-20 mile swim, I like doing a Broken 10K. 10x1000m reps (preferably LCM), 1 minute rest between each. Add up the total time, subtract 9 minutes, and that's my Broken 10K. I have two goals: (1) fastest total time, and (2) smallest range between slowest 1K and fastest 1K. Boring? Absolutely. So is marathon swimming.
You don't have to do a Broken swim. Whatever floats your boat - just make sure you're measuring something specific.
My primary objection to Mr. Oram's set is that I don't know what it measures. It seems a bit... scatterbrained, I guess?
Benchmark sets should measure something specific, and they should also measure something meaningful. It should be specifically relevant to the target swim. So, a marathon benchmark set should not include "sprints." Should a marathon swimmer do sprints occasionally in their regular workouts? Absolutely. But not on a benchmark set.
Here's an annotated version of the set:
So I can reduce my total time by swimming faster on the warm-up? Warm-up should not be part of a benchmark set.
"Sprints"? Does Mr. Oram mean this literally? Like, V02-Max, 100% effort, sprints? When would you ever do this on a channel swim? Ability to swim different speeds - yes. Not sprints.
Why is this not defined more specifically? So I can shave off time by taking 4 minutes instead of 5? What about 30 seconds rest? Why is the maximum defined, but not a minimum?
Many people cannot count reliably to 76 lengths of the pool.
Ditto.
Ditto.
Ditto.
So I shave off time by doing a faster cool down? A benchmark set should not incentivize faster cool-downs.
I know a lot of fast pool swimmers who could do this set in 40-45 minutes, and who could not come close to finishing the EC.
And I'm guessing Jackie Cobell would be close to 2 hours on this set.
Indeed. I think the "test" here is to give Mike O an idea of what to expect from a swimmer as they approach France.... Anyway that's what the good, upper bracket, normal, and struggle designations seem to suggest to me.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
If benchmarking basic long-distance swim speed is the aim, wouldn't a T-60 (distance swum in one hour) be far more reliable, repeatable, understandable, trackable, than a mish-mash of warm-up, sprints, 1900 straight, & cool-down, with optional rest?
The good/upper/normal/struggle brackets seem to imply that swim speed is the primary factor in whether a swimmer succeeds or "struggles" in the EC, and that seems false, or at least misleading.
It takes him two double-spaced pages to say good morning.
(not that its a bad thing)
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
He's made an important point about swimming hungry, so now I have my valuable take away. @evmo how often do you do a benchmark swim?
Regards everyone and I wish you all a very successful new year!
Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
If I want to test my marathon pace, I'll do the Broken 10km (but that set is psychologically draining so I'd probably do it no more than every 5 or 6 weeks.
If I want to test my threshold speed, I'll do a timed 1500, or the Swim Smooth Critical Swim Speed test (timed 400 followed by timed 200) - that is also an excellent benchmark set.
The key is having a specific focus (a meaningful "benchmark") for whatever test set you're doing.
As another example, here is a benchmark set recommended by Dave Salo, one of the most accomplished swim coaches in USA Swimming history. Notice the specific focus, the simplicity, the ease of tracking over time.
Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
Either a Monday set of descending 10x400s (Paul Newsome's Red Mist CSS set) which is a CS anaerobic set that @evmo mentions, which doubles as a weekly barometer of my condition and speed and requires monthly testing of 200m & 400m time to calculate the CSS.
Or a three k time trial on Tuesday which I don't do until I feel like I can make a good attempt of flat-out speed on all three kilometres (this tells me as much about how I am mentally, if I even want to attempt it, since it hurts a lot) ;
Or 6 to 10x 1ks once per month where my goal is hold the same speed within -10/+10 seconds with a 30 sec break between each. Similar to @Evmo's Broken 10k. I am most concerned with my average 1k speed here.
I either hate or love each one depending entirely on my current speed & fitness level. Simple & repeatable with no variation other than me. I do love time trials though, and always have, regardless of sport. I have no-one to help measure splits so I have do without that aspect.
Everything goes into my log because the essence of benchmarking is measurement and repeatability.
loneswimmer.com
Read @loneswimmer's series on Sylvain Estadieu's EC butterfly swim to understand some of the background motivation here. World-class expertise in marine navigation does not automatically translate to world-class expertise in swim training, or nutrition science, or any of the multitudinous topics @Niek collects in his repository without judgment or discrimination.
@Niek posted a 3,000-meter set to the 'Animal Set thread.' I am expressing the opinion that it is neither an animal set, nor a particularly useful benchmark set.
Hopefully some will find this discussion useful in thinking and learning about swim training.
My benchmark for marathon swimming is if I can do a 10K in the pool, in any form, w/o getting all, you know, melancholy or bored. 200 laps of a SCM pool sucks...
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
As for the whole thread, like many I've seen Mike's "benchmark" set every year and always disregarded it.
Benchmark means one or two specific things: It either means an initial measurement of capability (e.g how long it takes you to swim 3k on your first attempt) or it is the way @evmo and I mean it, which is as an ongoing assessment of progression or regression.
Had Mike O. used any other term the set would be filed with every other set of which there are infinite numbers. (Everyone has sets that others would hate, and visa versa). Mike O. however postulates this specific set for a specific purpose but it fails at that. The long and variable rest periods are essentially useless.
As @evmo points out, had the set been put into the Lunchtime Set or Average Set threads, it would have caused little or no reaction (though the long rest periods might have). It certainly isn't an animal set.
loneswimmer.com
@loneswimmer, would you be able to provide a quick sample of how you log these? Are you using an Excel file, paper, or a commercially available 'swim log' option? I'm looking for ideas that are easy to use and reference. I need to start logging these better than handwritten on my work calendar.
On a different note, @evmo references T30s and T60s above. I checked Openwaterpedia but didn't see a definition there. Can this be briefly explained?
Also, thank you to everyone for this thread. I'm finding it immensely helpful to plan and track my progress. As dubious as everyone seems to think this EC benchmark workout is as a viable repeatable test it looks like a good workout.
@evmo is right on with variable rest times and warm-up and cool-down being part of the test though. That's no good and a good way to hurt yourself in the warm-up or blast through your cool down trying to shave time. Warm-ups and cool-downs should remain sacrosanct and separate from the main set of any timed workout in any athletic activity.
I first read/heard of T30 and T60 swims in Hines' book Fitness Swimming (or something like that).
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
(Morty if you read this, please feel free to clarify, qualify, etc.)
- There may be some benefit to swimming hungry, IF it helps you better "feel" the transition from burning glycogen (glycolysis) to burning fats (ketosis). Ketosis is what will get you through a channel swim.
- There may be some benefit IF swimming hungry helps train your metabolism to more readily burn fats.
- Any benefit from swimming hungry should be weighed against the loss of quality in your workouts. Personally I don't find much benefit (or pleasure) in doing a crappy, lethargic workout.
- If you have your nutrition/feeding plan properly dialed in, you should not feel hungry during a channel swim.
loneswimmer.com
This is nice to hear, seeing how my wife has put me on this LCHF diet (she calls it "experimenting" on me as if that's supposed to sound better than "diet").
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Have fun training everyone to how you like, Here's to a good swimming year
If a swimmer is truly lost about how to train for the EC, perhaps the more useful advice Mr. Oram could provide would be to engage the services of a professional coach. (Though, preferably not someone employed by the organization itself, like the CSA does, haha).