What qualifies as an "official swimming governing body"?
evmo
SydneyAdmin
I'm having an interesting conversation on Twitter right now with Associated Press reporter Jennifer Kay (who covered the Nyad brouhaha):
url="https://twitter.com/jnkay/status/420558087573893120"]Direct link to Twitter context[/url
url="https://twitter.com/jnkay/status/420558087573893120"]Direct link to Twitter context[/url
Comments
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Wikkis definition: "A sport governing body is a sports organization that has a regulatory or sanctioning function. Sport governing bodies come in various forms, and have a variety of regulatory functions." They can be local, national, or internationl governing bodies.
As a "sanctioning" body, we are ALL part of MSF, intrinsically... but I do NOT want to be part of a "sanctioning" body. Too many liabilities. Sorry. Had to say it.(ps, trying to top Karen T's vocab and not coming close)
** addition** I am not saying that the MSF Rules are a bad , thing, I endorsed them, I agree with the idea of them and the need for them. What I don't think MSF can do ...AT THIS POINT.. is sanction a swim. Without a board, with out insurance with out by laws , a sanction is meaningless to anyone but the sanctee.This is not to say that this can't happen in the future. The world is not ready for it yet. ( course they weren't ready for us in September either )
Its an honor to be a part of such a distinguished group.
Hopefully, the swim coming up next week will shed some light on the possibilities here... A case study.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
If marathon swimming were to get "big", you can bet USS would assert there primacy.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
In our sport (amateur solo marathon swimming), which is not governed by FINA, the requirements of being an "officially governing body," for the most part, are:
1. The organization asserts it is an official governing body.
2. The marathon swimming community respects the legitimacy of the organization's assertion.
This is the case with almost every local governing body in our sport, with the exception of organizations with exclusive arrangements with maritime authorities (such as the CSA and CS&PF).
Oh wait, they have already done that! Now they just have to set up the proper governance and get official recognition.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
(In SF we are lucky to have the South End Rowing Club as an option for USMS club affiliation.)
Mike, would you be willing to look into what it'd take to set this up? Which LMSC would this hypothetical club belong to?
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
True and my apologies if I have insulted all of the Netherlands (and any other country). I did want to point out that in the US, claiming to represent any aspect of swimming MAY be trumped by the existing law. We might want to get one of our legal eagles to look at this before it goes too far - if only to figure out wording to prevent USS lawyer nasty-grams.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Count me in - I had to get one for the "Crazy Swim" in November, even though it galled me a bit to do so. I tried for years to list my club as "Shore A.C.", which was the club I racewalked for and have eternal allegiance to, but it was always rejected.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Steven Munatones
www.worldopenwaterswimmingassociation.com
Huntington Beach, California, U.S.A.
Here's the link to set up an USMS club.
One question to investigate is whether a swimmer from one LMSC can be in a club in another LMSC, I'm not sure that's possible. One could perhaps set up an MSF club in each LMSC where there is someone interested. MSF could then be used as your club when entering a USMS sanctioned event. Similar for USA Swimming clubs and USAS sanctioned events, but it's more involved to set up a USA Swimming club.
In the US if the event is not USAS or USMS sanctioned, aka the 2013 Portland Bridge Swim among others, you could pretty much list anything you want as your club, assuming they even list clubs.
From what I know as a USAS referee I'm pretty sure that USA Swimming doesn't really care about your event unless you do something infringing on their turf like using Olympic in the name, etc.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
The problem last year about this time was WHO would sanction long open water swims when USMS de-sanctioned many open water swims? The real issue was how swims would obtain insurance.
So the general wisdom was (1) get sanctioned, (2) be insured and (3) consider your swimmers blessed by the USMS. When USMS pulled the plug so to speak, it was fortunate that the Kingdom swim (and others) teamed up with WOWSA. WOWSA appears to be "governing/sanctioning/rule producing" to some extent in open water swimming. The Kingdom Swim stayed alive, was insured and was very successful. Does there need to be another independent governing body in addition to WOWSA? (can of worms - I know but I can't help scratch my head)
What I learned from members of this Forum, fortunately and thankfully, was that reasonable open water liability insurance existed for those that want to organize an open water swim - even without sanctioning. Perhaps it was even less expensive to obtain insurance because there was not a governing body that had to bless the swim before insuring it. More levels of approval can make a swim more expensive and less attractive to host.
With numerous governing bodies (multiple sets of rules) open water swimming can become a game of multi-layer chess and in essence dilutes the basis of governing at all. Frankly, I wish the CSA and CS&PF would join forces (in my lifetime) unify the open water swimming world and set the gold standard. Not convinced that the inability of CSA and CS&PF to unify is a reason to create more governing bodies.
Is the desire to govern a knee-jerk reaction to the Nyad fiasco?
My head hurts - I'm going for a swim without rules which will be governed by no one.
But Donal and I are always looking forward, thinking about the next thing... that's just how we are.
I will say it again, this time more forcefully for our friends @KNicholas and @Munatones: We currently have no interest in "governing" marathon swims in the traditional sense -- obtaining insurance, claiming "authority" over certain bodies of water, and everything that goes along with being an organization like the CS&PF, SBSCA, or CCSF.
I'm not sure why we even would be interested in that? It doesn't make much sense from my perspective. I am already a board member and observer for the SBCSA, I don't need another one.
What we are interested in (currently) is this: Creating a standardized platform -- just as we have created standardized Rules -- for swimmers to report and document their solo marathon swims. Indeed, the Rules are the basis for the standardized documentation - they provide a common framework so we can understand different swims, and different choices about swim conduct.
If swims are properly documented, and the documentation is transparently presented and publicly available, then the community can essentially crowd-source the function of a traditional governing body (for swims outside local jurisdiction). Just like what happened with Diana Nyad's swim, incidentally.
I know that may seem like a crazy idea.
MSF Rules were also a crazy idea, by the way.
Maybe in the future, a few marathon swimmers can all join our MSF masters club. If a bunch of us are in the same city, we can maybe find a pool to rent a lane to hold practices. People may see "MSF" renting the lanes and ask us what is the MSF. We can explain what marathon swimming is.
These are just ideas, but the initial reason why I'm looking into this is because when I sign up for USMS sanctioned swims, I want the club to be MSF.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Well . . . the confusion isn't imaginary.
In contrast, you've made it clear on the Channel Swimmers chat group, and here, that you do not think this project is necessary.
If you have something constructive to contribute though, please feel free.
My impression was that this thread and my comments are about MSF governing and the assumed authority to govern. I'm not in favor of MSF - as a broad based and very diverse community - taking on that role at this point.
I read (and still read) Greg's comment above as MSF being on the path to governing - I know others that share that confusion. Rules and standards are one thing (even a good thing - I don't hate all rules) - governing and enforcing those rules is another big step. I don't fault you for taking the leap and stepping out there, in fact I know you put in countless hours Evan just to make this Forum tick - just sharing my opinion - hopefully deemed suitably constructive.
That said, there is the Marathon Swimmers Federation and with the correct structure it could be formed into a governing body in the future. Now I have no idea of Evan and Donal's future plans for the Federation, I was just stating a possibility.
Personally I feel there is an unmet need in marathon swimming; one where a solo swimmer wishes to cross a body of water where there is no local organization to sanction/ratify the swim.
Now there are plenty of swimmers who don't care. They are not doing the swim for it to be officially recognized. They are attempting the crossing for themselves. But what of the select few (I'm thinking 10s of situations a year) that would like their swim to be officially documented and recognized by the marathon swimming community as well as the public (of course DNs swim comes to mind)? I think there is a need. FINA, USA Swimming and the like do not cover these type of swims. Someone should. I don't care if it is WOWSA, the Federation, or another organization, but someone needs to (IMO).
I take responsibility for starting this discussion without fully explaining my ideas. (Such is the nature of Twitter?) I think my aim was to stimulate conversation, and I suppose it has been successful in that regard.
SwimSwam and Swimming World both thought it was relevant to emphasize that the MSF is "not an official governing body." While technically true, I sensed it was a sneaky way of undermining the Rules document.
So, I decided to push back when AP's Jennifer Kay parroted this notion once again. Because actually, "official governing bodies" in solo marathon swimming are kind of an interesting thing. For the most part, governing bodies are only "official" in the sense that they're recognized by the global community of marathon swimmers. With only a couple exceptions, they don't have any exclusive, legally binding authority over their local bodies of water.
If MSF Rules are endorsed by a wide swath of the marathon swimming community, then aren't they, de facto, legitimate?
That's all I was trying to point out. An esoteric point, perhaps.
I have more to say about how the MSF may address the "unmet need" Greg referred to, but I have to go to bed now