The Stroke Problems & Questions Thread

loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
edited March 2017 in General Discussion

It's struck me as unusual that for a swimmer's forum, there is little discussion of technique, drills, etc. Plenty of sets. Lots of sets. We all have sets.

I've long assumed this lack of technique discussion is because I am the only average swimmer here compared to the rest of you.

But it may be the case that some of you like me have no access to a coach or club or even another swimmer who you can bounce things off and a thread dedicated to such might be helful (unless I've forgotten if we have a previous one of which @evmo will remind us).

loneswimmer.com

ssthomasmiklcct
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Comments

  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber
    I have a crappy stroke. People have tried to correct me for years. I still have nightmares of my high school coaches making me do pushups for not kicking enough and puting tape around my thighs so I'd know the exact point my fingers needed to hit so that I would know I was finishing my stroke properly.

    I think at this point, I just don't care any more. My crappy stroke, and lack of kicking, has gotten me through some long swims, with minimal shoulder pain. I'm sure some stroke improvements would make me faster, but I think at this point, I just don't care. I'm not swimming for speed. I swim because it's fun and I love it. What's the point in stressing on technique when it's gotten me this far already? You can't teach an old dog new tricks, after all. And I think it's easier to adjust training than to adjust your stroke...

    Maybe I'm not the only one who feels this way? I've found that us marathon swimmers tend to be a stubborn, set-in-our ways bunch!

    That being said, I give out lots of tips to the triathletes and lap swimmers I run into, who think I'm some kind of lap swimming goddess. (You just swam for an HOUR?! WOW?!) If anyone asked for advice, I'm happy to share. Though, they'd probably only listen to me until they saw me actually swim! :-)
    flystormsjohnyGnooravalkonendpm50
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoCharter Member
    edited August 2013
    I have a crappy stroke, but I am also pretty slow (~1.7mph open water, ~ a bit over 2mph in a pool) so I actively want to improve my stroke* since my speed is a limiting factor in some of the swims I want to do (no desire to win anything, just want to be able to finish).

    * I also suspect I am going to have to figure out to up my stroke rate from my normal 55spm to the crazy rates I keep reading about on this forum and other blogs.

    I'd love to hear discussions of techniques, and if I can ever get someone to video me, hear feedback of all the things I am doing wrong (and/or see videos and feedback on other swimmers).

    That said I am working with a swim coach directly (albeit not as frequently as I would like) to try and identify and correct my deficiencies. I'm curious as to efficiency of something like a forum for addressing stroke deficiencies but will consume all data available in my quest to go (slightly) faster.
    miklcct

    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer

  • mjstaplesmjstaples Atlanta, GA, USSenior Member
    Agree with @dc_in_sf. I would love all the help i can get. I am an over glider and know that my low stroke rate is a major factor in my slow speed. I've watched video of myself swimming and can obviously notice some deficiencies. However after many long swims I feel no pain ( other than the typical "I just wanna stop moving" pain) and minimal fatigue. Maybe my "crappy" stroke actually works well for me.
    dpm50
  • I improved my technique greatly by working with a TI coatch. I was a swimmer when I was a girl and there was much to correct. My technique is still far from being perfect but it is much more smooth, continous and less "jumpy".
  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member
    Swimming technique belongs in the same category as religion and politics WRT starting a major disagreement - that is at least true on other boards I have been on. Doubly so, it seems, if TI is discussed. As much as I like to pose questions that may be considered controversial, I have stayed away from this area for two reasons:
    1) It starts a war.
    2) Newer swimmers who are looking for advice generally get wildly conflicting thoughts and consequently get little real help.

    -LBJ
    pavlicov

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    @ssthomas - I have to chuckle a bit when you describe your stroke as "crappy." I would think, almost by definition, that you're doing a lot of things very, very well with your technique. People told Janet Evans her stroke needed work, too, because it didn't fit the stereotypical 6-foot-2 male style of swimming.

    Do you have any video? I'm sure many of us could learn from you.
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    Swimming technique belongs in the same category as religion and politics WRT starting a major disagreement - that is at least true on other boards I have been on.
    IMO, this is because of the nature of the questions typically asked - ones that can't be answered, e.g., "Which is better, Swim Smooth or TI?"

    I think it's possible to discuss stroke technique productively, but the questions need to be framed in the right way. For example, the "Thoughts on Kicking" thread linked above seemed fairly productive, no?
  • I believe the discussion of stroke technique on a forum has huge limitations. On other forums, I have seen hundreds of videos of Thorpe, Phelps, Popov, etc. posted saying "swim like this." This is entirely useless.
    Every swimmer's stroke (especially as adult swimmers) is unique to them. And, in open water, conditions often dictate the proper "technique" needed to complete the swim. Everyone has certain strengths and weaknesses, and a specific stroke needs to be adapted to them.
    Without posting dozens of videos of your own stroke, I don't believe any discussions on technique is useful on a forum.
    I'm actually happy to see that MSF has not had many threads on "how-to-swim"? Leave that to your coach who has seen you swim in a variety of conditions or levels of fatigue.
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2017
    RuffWater wrote:
    I believe the discussion of stroke technique on a forum has huge limitations. On other forums, I have seen hundreds of videos of Thorpe, Phelps, Popov, etc. posted saying "swim like this." This is entirely useless.
    Again, I'll point to the kicking thread.

    I agree, "How to swim" or "Swim like Thorpe" threads are useless. Not sure those are the only ways to have a technique discussion on a forum, though.

    Anyway, if y'all think this is a bad idea, I'm not going to twist any arms. Keep on keepin' on!

    Me, I'm constantly working on my technique, and enjoy hearing others' approaches to it, even if I don't always agree with it. For instance, I'd love to see video of @ssthomas swimming, that would be exciting to me.
    flystorms
  • WalterWalter Southern CaliforniaMember
    I would like know the ideas that others have for improving stroke, mostly pertaining to increasing speed; but reducing wear/tear is of interest to me as well.

    I am regularly crushed by comparative shorties, fatties and weaklings; just as I am by those to whom I am comparatively short, fat and weak. It would be great to improve my technique enough to catch somebody someday. Limitations of this forum for that discussion noted.

    Now, would someone please post a video of Doc Counsilman critiquing Janet Evans' stroke?!
    tortuga

    I'm not very popular around here; but I've heard that I'm huge in Edinburgh!

  • Yesterday I had an underwater video analyse made. Afterwards we watched in slow motion how I slightly wiggle my fingers during the catch. It duped the coach. He never saw anyone do this in all his years of swim instruction. I also could not give him an explanation. This morning when I woke up, I realized it is a bad habit I picked up from swimming in very cold water to fight numbness.

    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.

  • jvjjvj Charlotte, NCMember
    Our masters group often video tapes underwater and the most common stroke fault we see is the hand and forearm crossing well over the centerline of the body. Especially the arm opposite to the side unilateral breathers turn their head.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    @mongoose, if you ever get a chance, do it. It is amazing what you'll see. For me, in my brain I had a beautiful smooth stroke. I don't know who the hell they filmed, but the guy had the same suit and tattoos as me... ;)

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • I know of a couple people on my master's team who have worked with coaches via the internet for different types of training that they needed. They where able to get training advice and tips to help with specific issues or events- but we also learned that if you ask for advice from different coaches/ experts, you will get a various ideas and a host of things to work on. There is certainly something to be said for working with just one coach- lol!

    We do the underwater video and stroke work a lot, sadly it tells me the same things I learned about myself in college- I don't kick enough, I have a wonky left arm, and I breath too often!

  • tortugatortuga Senior Member

    Now that we've hashed out the benefits and limitations on a stroke question thread, I've got a stroke question: pertaining to high elbow catch - what should one do with their shoulder blade? I was thinking about this last week swimming in a wet suit which made me feel my shoulder blade move and think about it. Do I keep it medial and down? back and down? When doing deadlifts, it's best to "put your shoulder blades in your back pockets". I was wondering if there is a thing in swimming stroke? Maybe I'm just over thinking it.

    loneswimmer
  • jendutjendut Charter Member

    Good body awareness question!
    Keep shoulder blades back and down without arching low back. Use core strength to keep scaps from sliding up towards your ears. Even at the max extension of your hand prior to and during the catch your shoulder blades stay put- this feels short but is much more powerful (and safe for your shoulders) than "unhooking" the shoulder and over-reaching.

    tortugaSoloflystorms
  • tortugatortuga Senior Member

    Thanks @jendut

  • JSwimJSwim western Maryland, USSenior Member

    jendut said:

    Good body awareness question!
    Keep shoulder blades back and down without arching low back. Use core strength to keep scaps from sliding up towards your ears. Even at the max extension of your hand prior to and during the catch your shoulder blades stay put- this feels short but is much more powerful (and safe for your shoulders) than "unhooking" the shoulder and over-reaching.

    I am clueless. I have never, ever thought about my shoulder blades while I swam. Or had a coach (as a kid in the '70s or more recently) mention them. I really don't think I over-reach (that term, I'm familiar with), but "unhook" my shoulders? Hmm. I just don't know.

    Great thread!

    Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. --Neale Donald Walsch

  • SamSam Member

    dc_in_sf said:

    • I also suspect I am going to have to figure out to up my stroke rate from my normal 55spm to the crazy rates I keep reading about on this forum and other blogs.

    Out of interest (being a novice at best) is SPM important? If Swimmer A does 25m in 30 seconds and takes 20 strokes AND Swimmer B does 25m in 30 seconds but takes 15 strokes then who is benefitting the most? Swimmer B will have a lower SPM but has increased stroke efficiency which I thought would be better for long distance swims. I know some GPS watches offer a SWOLF score (which is strokes per length + time per length) however this could be gimmicky for all I know. Interested to hear thoughts and sorry if im repeating old ground!

  • suziedodssuziedods Mem​ber

    Great thread.
    I too laughed at @ssthomas comment.. and as an "professional observer', it was a joy to watch.
    As I am teaching I ask A LOT about "how does it FEEL?"
    Every BODY is different.. and as @evmo said.. people laughed at Janet Evan's stroke but look where it got her.
    It can be "hard" but FEEL good.. and vice versa but it also has to be sustainable.

    evmossthomasIronMike
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2017

    @Sam asked: Out of interest (being a novice at best) is SPM important? If Swimmer A does 25m in 30 seconds and takes 20 strokes AND Swimmer B does 25m in 30 seconds but takes 15 strokes then who is benefitting the most? Swimmer B will have a lower SPM but has increased stroke efficiency which I thought would be better for long distance swims.

    SWOLF is useful for tracking efficiency within a given swimmer, but not between different swimmers.

    If you improve from 30sec + 25strokes to 30sec + 15strokes at the same effort, then you have probably improved your efficiency.

    Swimmer A who takes 15 strokes in 30 sec, is not necessarily more efficient than Swimmer B who takes 25 strokes in 30 sec, because there may be differences in body characteristics (height, arm length, hand size) which cause Swimmer A to have a naturally longer stroke.

    flystormsssthomasIronMikeSam
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoCharter Member

    Sam said:

    dc_in_sf said:

    • I also suspect I am going to have to figure out to up my stroke rate from my normal 55spm to the crazy rates I keep reading about on this forum and other blogs.

    Out of interest (being a novice at best) is SPM important? If Swimmer A does 25m in 30 seconds and takes 20 strokes AND Swimmer B does 25m in 30 seconds but takes 15 strokes then who is benefitting the most? Swimmer B will have a lower SPM but has increased stroke efficiency which I thought would be better for long distance swims. I know some GPS watches offer a SWOLF score (which is strokes per length + time per length) however this could be gimmicky for all I know. Interested to hear thoughts and sorry if im repeating old ground!

    Taking fewer strokes per distance is not always the most efficient thing (see @evmo 's blog entry from a few years back)

    There are a lot of successful open water swimmers who use what the Swim Smooth folk call the "Swinger" style which is characterized by a high stroke rate.

    Which is not to say that increasing stroke rate is the answer for everything, but the particular context of the quote above is my suspicion that as someone on the low end of the stroke rate range, I need to increase my overall fitness to be able to sustain a slightly higher stroke rate vs work on stroke efficiency (which don't get me wrong still needs more work).

    evmossthomasIronMikeSam

    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer

  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    Another factor to consider with stroke rate is that us skinny people use a high stroke rate to keep warm. I also wiggle my fingers when they start to get cold. Sometime, I just blast along at a high rate to get warm and then I stretch it out to cruise. It's easier for me to go to a higher turnover than it is for me to gain 20 lbs... The other thing that affects my stroke rate is the water conditions. If it's kind of choppy, I think I go to a shorter quicker stroke. It's kind of like using low gear vs. a high gear smooth sailing stroke in calmer conditions.

    SolossthomasSam
  • SamSam Member

    dc_in_sf said:
    Which is not to say that increasing stroke rate is the answer for everything, but the particular context of the quote above is my suspicion that as someone on the low end of the stroke rate range, I need to increase my overall fitness to be able to sustain a slightly higher stroke rate vs work on stroke efficiency (which don't get me wrong still needs more work).

    Ah i read various blogs but they all say something different…v confusing to someone starting out. I think now is a good time to get an actual swim technique lesson booked in and get some analysis going. The linked blog is interesting reading and makes some very logical points about when efficiency actually hinders speed.

    And if you think your 55spm is slow then my watch from my last swim tells me I did my 4k in 1hr 10 minutes but with a 26spm!!! So ive got a lot of training ahead of me!

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Sam said:
    Ah i read various blogs but they all say something different…v confusing to someone starting out. I think now is a good time to get an actual swim technique lesson booked in and get some analysis going. The linked blog is interesting reading and makes some very logical points about when efficiency actually hinders speed.

    If there is a Swim Smooth-certified coach near you, try him/her.

    Sam

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2017

    @Sam said: I think now is a good time to get an actual swim technique lesson booked in and get some analysis going.

    Good idea, but make sure it includes underwater filming if possible - most of the important stuff happens there.

    The linked blog is interesting reading and makes some very logical points about when efficiency actually hinders speed.

    You may still be conflating efficiency and stroke length. They aren't the same thing. Efficiency is always a good thing -- but overly long stroke length can be inefficient.

    And if you think your 55spm is slow then my watch from my last swim tells me I did my 4k in 1hr 10 minutes but with a 26spm!!! So ive got a lot of training ahead of me!

    Double the number from your watch - it is counting cycles (two strokes).

    Sam
  • SamSam Member

    @IronMike I've located one about 25 minutes away by train which is an acceptable distance to travel in the UK :)

    @evmo thanks for the clarification: I was starting to worry that I had an Everest to climb with my SPM...but turns out I only need to add a further 35 or so spm's until its at a competitive standard....easy :))

    IronMike
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    So lucky! I am looking forward to returning to the states one day where I will sign up for the 3-day course. I could use some "correction" ;)

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • SamSam Member

    So my stroke improvement continues. I had a swim coach lesson last weekend (unfortunately no underwater camera but a certified swim coach nonetheless). Things identified were:

    1. Little to no kicking; and
    2. My arm coming out of the water too high (after the pull completes).

    I was informed that, no matter the distance, 70% of freestyle power comes from the legs. Do people concur with this because ive seen Ytube videos that say otherwise?

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member

    70% of freestyle power comes from the legs

    That's horseshit. Kick is maybe 15% for an elite sprint or middle distance swimmer (50m to 400m) who has trained their kick for power. The most important thing about kick for distance is that it doesn't add drag & slow you down. Propulsion-neutral & drag-neutral is fine for long distance, as it uses least energy.

    FrancoSamwendyv34curlytimsroottortuga

    loneswimmer.com

  • SamSam Member
    edited March 2017

    loneswimmer said:

    70% of freestyle power comes from the legs

    That's horseshit. Kick is maybe 15% for an elite sprint or middle distance swimmer (50m to 400m) who has trained their kick for power. The most important thing about kick for distance is that it doesn't add drag & slow you down. Propulsion-neutral & drag-neutral is fine for long distance, as it uses least energy.

    I did think the claim was odd...but then again he was the swim coach and im struggling to increase my speed (over distance) currently. Ah I paid £16 for that lesson!

  • Freestyle is not 70% kick, and kick impact and power will change with the distance. Perhaps the your coach came from sprinting background? A good kick is important and will add speed and is an important part of developing a good stroke and more power. I wouldn't get hung up on "numbers" or percentages. Every coach has their own take on all these things.

    With time and practice you should be able to work out what works for you.

  • This thread is so interesting, in part because many here have articulated some things I've always felt about my stroke. Because I haven't had a coach to tell me anything in 22 years, I had no idea there was such a thing as Swim Smooth vs Total Immersion, but these are the two halves of my swimming brain, and one or the other might be dominant at any given moment. In the pool, I tend to start a swim TI and "regress" to the Swim Smooth, although the latter is where I generally find the rhythm that carries me through. And even though I know this, I still yearn to reduce my strokes per length, and assiduously track this number with periodic evaluations. In open water, incidentally, all bets are off -- the terrain dictates the stroke, the rougher the water the faster the cadence.
    However, the thing I really want to say is this: I'm scared to submit to coaching.
    I know it could help. A lot, I'm sure, especially because of the group workouts that could come with it. I know the coach is going to tell me to kick more (I'm currently working on upgrading back to a two-beat kick from my previous "dead flagella" technique). I know the coach is going to give me drills to do, that are going to be super difficult because my kick is so weak. I want discrete, high-impact tips to easily tweak the stroke I have at age 40, and I fear the rebuild. I'm not a kid anymore, and if swimming stops being fun, I'll probably do something else instead.
    I am actually reminded of a story I read way back about tennis rivals Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras. Agassi had the reputation as a wild, obstinate rebel, while Sampras was depicted in media as reserved, polite, hardworking, even studious. In real life, Sampras was allergic to most coaching, preferring to leave his game to itself, while Agassi -- the wild child -- would take and implement advice from virtually any old body. (I think there must be a link here to Sampras's legendary consistency over the length of his elite career/his inability to adapt his game to clay, and Agassi's tendency to go from unbeatable to unranked and back again in 18 months/his ability to win over a longer period of time, on all surfaces.)
    This is all a way of saying that I need a coach to get me across the Channel in <5 years, and that coach needs to be OK with me being a wet, low-rent Sampras, not an Agassi. Anybody know such a person in the Philadelphia, PA, USA area?

    evmo
  • rlmrlm Senior Member

    I taught swimming to children & adults for at least 10 years (Yes, I had the WSI.). I still think (& thought then) the kick helps establish body position, but in Freestyle the arms/hands pull provide most of the forward motion. You can move along pretty fast with the flutter kick, but the legs take a LOT for energy. Just as an experiment try sprinting 100 yards with a kick board only (no arm pull) and then try a 100 yards with a pull buoy (no kick) and see how you feel and check your time. I still remember seeing a great 1650 swimmer (Roy Saari) who had an unusual/unique whip in his flutter kick that seemed to add speed (without great cost), but I think emphasizing the correct arm pull & recovery would do much more to enable sustainable & efficient swimming. Freestyle sprinters, however, have great flutter kicks AND pulls and use both to propel them. Watch the videos/observe some of the successful open water MSF Certified swimmers (Scott Zornig's recent swim around Coronado Island, for example) and you will see people who minimize the kick and rely almost completely on the arm pull. All the best. RLM

    evmo
  • MoCoMoCo Worcester, MASenior Member

    I don't really kick (mostly because my lower back/hips are jacked and my lower body is somewhat disconnected from my upper body - working on that with PT then I'll worry about kicking. My body position is fine so I'm not stressing.). For drills, I either don't kick at all and just focus on letting the back half of my body float, or if it's a new drill and I think I might drown, instead of kicking I add a pull buoy. I suppose you could add fins for drills too.

  • A few mind-fiddles I use:
    Think of kicking from your shoulders and stroking from your hips.
    Think of a big cable already attached to your head pulling you along - your stroke just makes this smoother and faster.
    Think of pace sessions as the ultimate technique sessions and technique sessions as the ultimate pace sessions.

    wendyv34
  • CamilleCamille Member

    Hey Seanmc76,

    First off I want to say hi to a fellow "dead flagella" kicker :-)
    I always learn so many new terms on this board- ha!

    I wanted to say do not hesitate finding a coach, and you may need to try a few to find one who you "click" with. I have all kinds of flaws I need to work on, but I also realize that so much of my stroke is now so imbedded I can work on things to try to fix, but I will never have a "perfect stroke". My coaches are great resources and give me tips and drills to help and their feedback is so important. Yet they also know when coaching adults how to balance what to work on and what to leave alone (for now).

    I hope you find someone to help you and keep you motivated!

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    I'm really slow that I can't even catch up the OWS group that I want to swim with (which includes the well-known marathon swimmers in my city) unless I put on fins. I currently estimate that I need 4 hours for a 10 km swim.

    I joined a squad starting from October 2018, did a swim smooth video analysis, and also a few lessons from another coach, but after a year it turned out that I didn't have much improvement. I'm still in lane 1 (slowest) in the squad while my idols are in lanes 3 or 4 (fastest). Even new swimmers to the squad are faster than me. I have already lost my confidence there. The only thing that they helped was my endurance which initially I tired out after 3 km when I just started serious swimming, to completing a 14 km race recently.

    The only reasonable explanation that I'm so slow, can't even catch up people who are 30 years older than me, is that my stroke must be crappy. I'm really worried that if I continue to swim a lot my bad habits will be harder and harder to remove, or even bring me injury, so I dare not increase my training further until a coach has identified my crappiness.

    Therefore I'm looking to Total Immersion. I tried out a lesson last October and it brought me good effect overnight, and I really got some improvement afterwards, therefore I planned to have lessons further since February after my race. However by that time COVID had shut down the entire world and I lost half a pool swimming season (which is November to April for me). Although I continued open water swimming I couldn't get any Total Immersion lessons in the pool. The coach still hasn't decided when he will resume Total Immersion lessons yet despite the pools have been reopened.

    As I mentioned that I have lost confidence in the original squad, I am doing lessons in another club this month. However I think that it is even worse than before - they train different strokes (even including butterfly which I don't know!), they kick a lot (which I doubt its usefulness), and they tell me to do drills that I barely understand. Therefore I will not continue. Also the weather is now too hot for me to swim anything intense, both in the pool and in the sea, but I want to have my stroke problems fixed in time by the start of the next season (i.e. November) so I just want to do stroke correction classes.

    Can anyone suggest how I should find classes which are appropriate for me? I want to do stroke correction such that my 10+ km time can be significantly improved by the time when the next season begin in November. I'm planning to do even 20+ km swims afterwards! so I don't want to injure myself with my crappy stroke!

  • flystormsflystorms Memphis, TNSenior Member

    See if you can find a coach who will do private lessons? Contact clubs/gyms/pools in the area to see if there is anyone who can help you?

    "...they kick a lot (which I doubt its usefulness), and they tell me to do drills that I barely understand. Therefore I will not continue."

    Drills and kicking can help you. Olympians do them so why wouldn't you? They can help refine some of the areas where you're having issues. And kicking is good to help you with strengthening your legs which provide you balance. If you're dragging your feet lower than the rest of your body, you're going to be slower (basic engineering around drag, right?)

    Copelj26IronMike
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @flystorms said:
    See if you can find a coach who will do private lessons? Contact clubs/gyms/pools in the area to see if there is anyone who can help you?

    It will be my last resort because private lessons are expensive.

    "...they kick a lot (which I doubt its usefulness), and they tell me to do drills that I barely understand. Therefore I will not continue."

    Drills and kicking can help you. Olympians do them so why wouldn't you? They can help refine some of the areas where you're having issues. And kicking is good to help you with strengthening your legs which provide you balance. If you're dragging your feet lower than the rest of your body, you're going to be slower (basic engineering around drag, right?)

    How does "strengthening my legs" related to balance? However the main reason I'm not continuing is that they spend too much time on non-freestyle drills and sets.

    In the past I haven't learnt any kicking and basically didn't know how to kick properly and didn't know how is kicking useful, until I did the Total Immersion lesson which specifically taught me the 2-beat kick for rotation and balance.

  • mke84mke84 Milwaukee, WIMember

    You've been discussing your lack of progress for over a year, yet seem to have taken only the tiniest of steps to actually do anything about it. I think the truly frustrating part of all these posts is the fact that you have done marathon swims with halfway decent times, especially for someone new to the sport. It seems like you've gotten to be pretty good at swimming pretty poorly, if that makes sense. You probably could be a fairly good (not saying winning races, definitely not saying elite) swimmer if you put more effort into the right things.

    So here's my assorted thoughts on your situation...
    -Private lessons too expensive - have you tried asking one of the experienced people in your open water group if they'd be willing to meet you before/after your usual swim and give you lessons. I'd think offering them 50-75% what you'd normally pay a private instructor would be appropriate. Or offer to buy them breakfast/lunch after each lesson. Or a case of beer. Or whatever you think would sweeten the deal for them. If you don't feel comfortable asking them for coaching, ask for just 1 thing you could work on. Then go home, watch videos of how x-thing is supposed to look, drills/tips to help correct it, then work on that for a week and ask if they could reassess. Repeat process as needed. Do not ask for their advice/help then go online and tell everyone why you think they're wrong and you're right.
    -Don't like your new swim squad's approach - what you were doing previously wasn't working and this could be a chance to start over. Ask your coach what specific drills are supposed to work on. Ask your lane mates if you could watch them do it/watch you do it to make sure you're understanding what to do. If they're hard to do, it's probably a good indicator that's a deficit in your stroke and that drill is especially pertinent to you. Not the other way around. Explain your goals and background and ask if it's ok to do some other drills/swimming while others are working on non-free. Kicking isn't as important in OW as in pool swimming, but still helps with body position and reducing drag so I'd absolutely say it's worth doing at least some kicking drills. Especially since you've said you didn't know how to kick previously.
    -Post a video. People have been suggesting it since the beginning but I don't think I've ever seen one. If you can't do it in a pool - swim parallel and close to the shore and have someone follow you to get a somewhat decent angle.
    -Don't want to do any of the above - watch TI videos and drills and do them on your own. Even if you're not doing drills perfectly, you're likely not going to make things worse and there may be less work (and less money spent) when you can get lessons. This doesn't have to be done in a pool. Then take the concept the drill is focused on and apply it your swimming. There were so many times while I was coaching that we would work on a drill or skill, the kids would show proficiency at it, then as soon as they were back to "normal" swimming they would immediately revert back because it was "too hard" to do everything together.
    -Most improvement does not come overnight. This is not to be expected, regardless of what coaching or team you join. When it does happen, it's usually because you're improving (not fixing) something that's significantly wrong. When changing technique, I've found people usually get slower before they get faster.
    -Stop obsessing about distance and speed. Seriously. Just stop. I see this as the perfect time for you to actually make improvements to your stroke since you are less inclined to try to swim fast or far. Focus on doing something right rather than fast.
    -Overall, stop complaining so much. It's not helping anything to complain about how hot the water is or how others are so much faster or how you can't do everything you want to do right away. It's ok to be frustrated or uncomfortable and voice that occasionally, but no one wants to be around that kind of negativity on a regular basis. And realize that most of your idols (which seems like a very strong word, maybe that word has a slightly different connotation there than in the US) are probably just average to slightly about average people that have put in a lot of time and hard work. When new people are advancing past you, 99.9% of the time it's not because they're superhuman swimming prodigies.

    evmokejoyceabbygirlrosecurlyJSwimthelittlemerwookiejendutflystormswendyv34IronMike
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member
    edited June 2020

    @mke84 said:
    ... It seems like you've gotten to be pretty good at swimming pretty poorly, if that makes sense. You probably could be a fairly good (not saying winning races, definitely not saying elite) swimmer if you put more effort into the right things.

    • have you tried asking one of the experienced people in your open water group if they'd be willing to meet you before/after your usual swim and give you lessons. ... Repeat process as needed. Do not ask for their advice/help then go online and tell everyone why you think they're wrong and you're right.
      When new people are advancing past you, 99.9% of the time it's not because they're superhuman swimming prodigies.

    What an excellent pile of advice in one post! One point that I'd like to add emphasis to is the idea of talking with one of the experienced people about getting some guidance. People who are really good at something love to help someone who honestly is seeking advice and help.

    I'm reminded of a brief foray of mine into weightlifting. For some reason or other I was unable to swim, I don't remember why, but I couldn't. So I joined a gym and started lifting weights. I'd show up every day and I'd diligently do the few exercises that the orientation guy showed me. To put things in perspective, I do not have anything close to a weightlifters physique... or strength for that matter.

    I would notice someone doing an exercise that seemed to be something I should learn. So I'd wait until after they finished their rep or when they were taking a break and I'd ask them about it. They'd be happy to show me the correct way to do it and would be very encouraging. They knew I was serious about doing it the right way and they really didn't care whether I could bench press 500 lbs. or 50 lbs.

    I can't tell you how many people have asked me about stroke technique or training tips and I'm more than happy to help out. Most people take it as a complement when they are asked for help. The ones that don't are kind of jerks and you don't want their advice anyway, so it's kind of self regulating.

    One other point - regarding leg strength for kicks. Swimming is balance. Every aspect of balance requires skillful muscle control. If you condition and strengthen your legs for swimming, you will then have better balance in the water. Having strong legs for running is good for running, but you are using your legs in a different way in the water, so kicking drills are the way to go. I hate kick drills with a passion. The only thing I can say I like about kicking drills is that it gives your arms a rest. So do kicks. It really does make a difference.

    flystormsmke84IronMikeemkhowley
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited June 2020

    @mke84 said:

    You've been discussing your lack of progress for over a year, yet seem to have taken only the tiniest of steps to actually do anything about it. I think the truly frustrating part of all these posts is the fact that you have done marathon swims with halfway decent times, especially for someone new to the sport. It seems like you've gotten to be pretty good at swimming pretty poorly, if that makes sense. You probably could be a fairly good (not saying winning races, definitely not saying elite) swimmer if you put more effort into the right things.

    For me, a good marathon swimmer is a swimmer who wins 10 km and 25 km races, such as Fredric Liljeström. I want to improve my technique such that I can catch up those swimmers. Fredric is about 30 years older than me but he can beat the national team members in their teens!

    Even if it is not a race, I want to become a fast swimmer who get through an adverse current and make to the finish before the tide turns, rather than someone who has stuck at the same point swimming against the current for 6 hours until the tide turns to bring him to the finish!

    -Private lessons too expensive - have you tried asking one of the experienced people in your open water group if they'd be willing to meet you before/after your usual swim and give you lessons. I'd think offering them 50-75% what you'd normally pay a private instructor would be appropriate.

    The most well-known coach here are charging HK$900 for an hour of private lesson, some other coaches even at HK$1100+!!! However I sometimes get referred to someone who are doing private lessons at about HK$400 - HK$500, in such circumstances I will take it.

    -Stop obsessing about distance and speed. Seriously. Just stop. I see this as the perfect time for you to actually make improvements to your stroke since you are less inclined to try to swim fast or far. Focus on doing something right rather than fast.

    I know. It's because I can't even sustain 10 km in the sea or do 10 x 100 m on 2' in the pool now which I could easily do that in winter, so the only thing I can work on now is my technique to hope that I can become faster without increasing my energy output or heat generation.

    And realize that most of your idols (which seems like a very strong word, maybe that word has a slightly different connotation there than in the US) are probably just average to slightly about average people that have put in a lot of time and hard work. When new people are advancing past you, 99.9% of the time it's not because they're superhuman swimming prodigies.

    I think I must have serious problem in my swim technique because people of all ages, sizes, shapes and experience are all much faster than me, including people who are 30 years older than me, double my size, or only half my size, and people who have just started swimming.

    Also I have to determine if it is worthwhile for me to continue to put my time (or even money) to train for it. For example if it will take me 25 years of hard work to have the slightest chance to get into the 10 km or 25 km national team by the age of 50, then I will probably give up - however if it is viable to make it in 5 to 10 years while retaining enough training in my other sport which I'm already in the national team, I will put my effort and try to do it. (I want to pick 2 unrelated sports for my life to get good at both at the same time)

  • abeabe australiaMember

    you just need to find a sport you are good at...obviously swimming physically and mentally you are not good at...i suck at ultra running but do it for MY challenge

    flystormsmke84wendyv34emkhowley
  • flystormsflystorms Memphis, TNSenior Member

    @miklcct Dude, you regularly come here asking for advice, then immediately tell us why you can't do something. It's exhausting. It's taken many of us years to do well (or even marginal) in this sport and we do it much the way the folks have said, by working pieces and parts over time. And we enjoy it or we wouldn't do it, no matter how fast or slow we are.

    One thing I'd suggest is writing down your goal and then figuring out what interim goals need to be accomplished to get to that big, hairy goal. Sure you need to do other races to get to that big one, but what are you doing on the micro level every day or at least every week to get to each of those interim goals? How do you adjust when you don't quite meet that goal? What are you doing to improve incrementally? You don't just suddenly wake up and "poof", you're a fast swimmer. It takes time and gradual modifications.

    You don't have to state all of your interim goals here please, but ponder the concept for yourself and write it down.

    "A dream is just a dream. A goal is a dream with a plan and a deadline." - Harvey MacKay

    KatieBunSpacemanspiffIronMikeemkhowley
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    Have you ever played a musical instrument? It's easy as all heck. Piano, just plunk your finger down on a key and you make a note. Guitar, just twang a string. Drums? Say no more. Easy. So why can't you just sit down at a piano and knock out a jazz improvisation, because after all it's just a bunch of notes and chords. Well the fact is that anyone who is good at an instrument has played it their entire life. They play and practice and learn. They work with other musicians. They explore.

    When I was a kid, I had to take piano lessons. My mother was a classical musician and insisted that I learn classical piano. It was difficult, frustrating with tears and hours of missing out on other stuff I'd rather be doing. Scales, drills and all sorts of pointless exercises to learn how to play music I didn't even like. Eventually I stopped taking classical lessons.

    I now play jazz piano. I can play with a band or I can sit down and play music that just comes out of my head and out of the piano. I can't even explain it. It is effortless and when I'm really in the groove it sometimes is even pretty good. And even now after all these years, there are jazz pianists who absolutely blow me away with their skill and talent. Because they actually work longer and harder at it than I do.

    Point being that nobody is born to be great at something. Anyone who is great at something works at it endlessly. Anyone who is great at something experiences endless hours of frustration. But they don't whine endlessly about it. Everything worth doing requires a little forward progress with a little crash and burn. The thing that separates the progress from the crash and burn is that you get up and do it again.

    And stop bitching about it! I have never been on a swim team where a team mate whined and kvetched and remained on the team. Either you suck it up and do the work, or you fail and join the also rans. BTW, I've been swimming all my life and now I'm one of those old guys that smoke the young guys in races and workouts. They can't figure it out. All it takes is thousands of hours of practice, drills, working, learning and observing. Don't underestimate old guys...

    wendyv34flystormsemkhowley
  • mke84mke84 Milwaukee, WIMember

    @flystorms said:
    @miklcct Dude, you regularly come here asking for advice, then immediately tell us why you can't do something. It's exhausting.

    I think a while back when talking about his training plans/philosophy, someone referred to the Einstein quote about the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think we've reached the other side - people still offering advice and expecting he'll listen. I honestly wish him well and hope something changes, but wouldn't be at all surprised to see another post along these exact lines in 4-6 months.

    curlyflystormsemkhowley
  • sosophiaphiasosophiaphia Colorado USAMember

    I typically choose not to engage in this. But I just had my first swim in many months, which filled me with a hefty dose of gratitude and some self reflection. I have many goals in marathon swimming, and only one of them is getting faster.

    Since this thread is actually about stroke problems, I'll try to stick to that. When I started marathon swimming, my stroke was smooth and easy and comfortable enough for me to swim many miles. However, my stroke count was around 46. A coach friend of mine encouraged me to speed up my stroke count so that I could swim a bit faster, which was a manageable place to start. Getting to 48 came easily. 50 was doable. I spent all summer and winter getting comfortable with a stroke count in the 54-55 range.

    You know what though? My coach friend was right -- I did faster with just that one change. And now he has given me another thing to work on (when the pandemic slows down a little). As many have said, this is a lifetime job.

    My official times didn't end up reflecting my improved speed, though. My second 10K was held at 8500 feet in elevation and I usually train at 5200 feet; my time was slower because I was air hungry the whole damn. I had the flu during my most recent 10K and my goal was to just finish. I was so happy to cross the line -- even though I went about 40 minutes slower than I would have aimed for on a healthy day. Yikes! Last year I swam an ultramarathon race and came in 5th of six in my age group, partly because my kayaker capsized and he and I spent a very long time chasing our belongs down the river, laughing the whole time. We were swimming against the current at that time, so there was a lot of catching up to do once we found all our things and he went to shore to empty the kayak. I also saw my first bald eagle on that swim, and chased someone down in the last 300 meters when I thought I had not one bit of energy to spare. There are accomplishments in every swim, and my times do not always reflect my actual speed. If you look at my times on the database, you would think I'm getting "worse" very quickly!

    Remember, the Queens of the North and English Channels are not the fastest people to have swum the North and English Channels. Nearly every "first" in marathon swimming has had its time broken since then. Maybe next year my times will reflect my swimming abilities. Maybe next year my stroke count will be higher. Maybe my right arm will finally find the strongest place to pull. Progress, not perfection.

    I have the pleasure of regularly sharing lanes and lakes with folks who are well known locally and internationally -- idols to many, including myself. I will never be as fast as them. But I can swim a freestyle lap of the lake while Batches swims butterfly or backstroke. Or be willing to let Sarah convince me to sign up for a long ass event that terrifies me. Or aim to be a little more like my friend Cindy, who can swim an hour at sub-50 temperatures and come out with the biggest grin on her face. I can try to be the best crew member I can, even when I'm cold and hungry and haven't slept in 24 hours. I can swim in new bodies of water that are really really scary. I know I'm (much) stronger and (a little) faster than I used to be.

    I hope you find whatever you are looking for in this sport. How exciting that you are already so accomplished in one sport, as most of us cannot attest to that! I wish you all the best.

    Sorry for helping to derail the topic of this thread. But not sorry for the memories.

    curlyMpolemkhowley
  • mke84mke84 Milwaukee, WIMember
    edited June 2020

    @sosophiaphia , you did more to bring to back to the topic than I did, so thank you for that. It's encouraging to hear your progression about stroke rate and speed, even if that doesn't show in race times. I can relate - I don't know my official stroke per minute rate but my cruising pace was 1:35/100y and 12 strokes per lap. Not the fastest time, but I could do it forever and keep a perfectly consistent breathing pattern. And since I don't swim to compete, I was fine with it. But in the beginning of the year, I decided to make a conscious effort to increase my stroke rate since I wanted to do more colder water swimming and to increase my speed. Again, don't know SPM but pre-COVID I was up to around 14-15 strokes/lap, my breathing was more variable, but my times when sprinting or over sustained distances were faster. It may not have been as pretty, but I was feeling stronger and faster (and the lingering echoes of my college coach telling me to "move my damn arms faster" were slowly beginning to fade, haha) and I was looking forward to seeing what this summer held. Plans have obviously changed and it'll be a while before I'm back where I was, but I'm just happy to be back in the pool again.

    It sounds like you've had some memorable races! I hope to one day have some crazy, hilarious, wonderful memories like yours. And to add to my list of really really scary bodies of water I've swam in. Good luck with everything!

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @sosophiaphia said:
    Since this thread is actually about stroke problems, I'll try to stick to that. When I started marathon swimming, my stroke was smooth and easy and comfortable enough for me to swim many miles. However, my stroke count was around 46. A coach friend of mine encouraged me to speed up my stroke count so that I could swim a bit faster, which was a manageable place to start. Getting to 48 came easily. 50 was doable. I spent all summer and winter getting comfortable with a stroke count in the 54-55 range.

    You know what though? My coach friend was right -- I did faster with just that one change. And now he has given me another thing to work on (when the pandemic slows down a little). As many have said, this is a lifetime job.

    Thanks for reminding me why I think my squad doesn't work on me. When I started swimming in 2018, my stroke per minute was about 55. My swim smooth squad coach immediately thought that I was stroking too slow and raised my stroke rate. After a winter of training my stroke rate raised to about 62 - 64.

    However, the problem is that, my stroke did not get longer - in fact my stroke per length increased which suggested my efficiency went down as the result of my change. However my squad coach thought that in the past I glided (a dirty word) too much which wasted efficiency. The coach actually advocates 80+ or even 90 spm, and she thinks that everyone of my size and shape should ideally swim at at least 70+ spm. Also she believes that high stroke rates work better in open water and she likes to show off videos of our squad members with a high stroke rate.

    I know that if my efficiency is still so bad, there is no way that I can eventually catch up my idols and get good rankings in races.

    There are 2 other problems about a high stroke rate:

    1. It will require fitness that I can't sustain over marathon swimming distance (there is no way I can sustain 65+ spm over 15 km).
    2. By stroking faster I generate a lot of heat which eventually results in overheating in most of the time of the year so I must reduce my stroke rate, which explains my time difference between summer and winter.

    In normal circumstances, if I don't believe in the coach's method, I would already left fast. However because most marathon swimmers I know, including English Channel swimmers and round HK swimmers, train in the same squad so I believe that something must be good in the squad for they to remain. So I remained there for a year as well, but I still didn't get speed improvement (only my endurance was improved) so now I'm going to give up despite all my friends are there, and find another squad even though there are no marathon swimmers there.

    I hope you find whatever you are looking for in this sport. How exciting that you are already so accomplished in one sport, as most of us cannot attest to that! I wish you all the best.

    My squad coach was an Olympian in two sports - swimming and rowing, with 12 years apart. Although I have got in the national team of my other sport, there are few training opportunities here so there is little room for improvement unless I move away (which I'm going to do so next year and my plan is to get a working holiday visa - therefore I have to grab my only chance for me to swim the channel in my life! which is my main reason why I need fast improvement - those channel swimmers from hot climates did it when they were studying in the UK).

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