Nutrition / Feeding Mega-Thread

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  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    I have been using carbopro for over a year now and I really like it but I want to experiment with increasing my calories/feed. Right now (and for my Catalina swim) I use 1 scoop (~100cal)/8oz water. Does anyone know if I can just increase the concentration (1.5 scoop) but leave the amount of water the same? Will it even dissolve? I'd love any suggestions.

    swimdaily
  • JustSwimJustSwim Senior Member

    I mix my Carbo Pro into warm water. I find it clumps less and doesn't seem to change the taste. Plus I usually mix a bottle up in 3 stages to prevent clumping. Then I chill it in the refrigerator.

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited June 2017

    It will dissolve in higher concentrations. The more important question is whether you can metabolize it in higher concentrations over a multi-hour swim.

    You've said 100 cal per feed... but how many feeds per hour is that? Usually 300 cal / hour is the upper bound of what the average person can sustainably metabolize. If you're feeding every 20 mins, that already puts you at 300 cal / hour, not including calories in added flavoring.

    ssthomas
  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    I feed every 30 min so right now about 200 cal/hr since I don't add flavoring. I also rotate in an applesauce feed every 2 hours, which is only 60 calories. Thanks for the help, I'll experiment with adding a little more to each feed for my next training swim.

    ssthomas
  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber

    abbygirlrose said:
    I have been using carbopro for over a year now and I really like it but I want to experiment with increasing my calories/feed. Right now (and for my Catalina swim) I use 1 scoop (~100cal)/8oz water. Does anyone know if I can just increase the concentration (1.5 scoop) but leave the amount of water the same? Will it even dissolve? I'd love any suggestions.

    That's about what I use, but I mix it into 24 ounce bottles. 4 scoops for 24 ounces. No issues dissolving.

  • SydneDSydneD Senior Member

    Any Tailwind users?
    Based on what I am reading, I don't think UCAN is for me, and I spent last year's Italy swim puking up CarboPro all the way. A first for me!

  • MoCoMoCo Worcester, MASenior Member

    SydneD said:
    Any Tailwind users?
    Based on what I am reading, I don't think UCAN is for me, and I spent last year's Italy swim puking up CarboPro all the way. A first for me!

    Tailwind is all the rage with my triathlete friends these days. I tried a few sips and really didn't like the taste, I found it too sweet.

    SydneD
  • swimrn62swimrn62 Stowe, VTSenior Member

    I really like the mild taste of Tailwind, especially the Green Tea (sounds really strange but it's good). They sell a taster pack that lets you try out all the flavors.

    SydneD
  • swimmer25kswimmer25k Charter Member

    Spacemanspiff said:
    Pickle Juice! I swear by this. I really struggle with cramping. Two tablespoons 30 mins before intense efforts or efforts of more than 2 hours and then a tablespoon mixed in with at least one feed per 90 minutes is all I need. It is highly acidic (which some experts claim is part of the benefit), so if you struggle with reflux (which is already exacerbated by the horizontal nature of our sport), it may not work for you.

    The woman who operates the deli in my building saves her extra for me and gives it to me (free!) in gallon jugs.

    I gave the "Pickle Juice" brand a try at the 2007 Lake Travis 20K. I've always been plagued by warm water. Of my 3 DNFs, two were due to dehydration/cramps (1995 and 2005 USS 25K Nationals). If I had maintained my position (3rd and 2nd, respectively) I would have made a US National travel team. I'm (kind of not) over it.

    I cramped pretty hard at the 2006 Lake Travis swim (BTW, Lake Travis is the PERFECT swim to try your hand at an escorted swim and/or tactics, feeding, what to feed with, etc), so I tried Pickle Juice in 2007. I didn't cramp as bad as in the previous year, however, I didn't get the desired results.

    I had to drink Pickle Juice ice cold. It burned like hell when I'd get some up my nose.

    I was turned on to a capsule called "Succeed S!CAPS", which contain sodiums chloride, bicarbonate, citrate, and phosphate, as well as potassium chloride.

    I trained with them and used during the 2008 Lake Travis swim. Of all the races I've done and had cramping issues, this was BY FAR the best product I've ever tried.

    We're all different, so we'll react to these products in different ways. Just be sure to train with any of these products before you race with them. (I used all of these products in training before I raced with them).

    A quick example of this was my experience with Maxim. When I showed up in Dover I was told two things by one of the locals. #1 was that I wasn't going to finish because I hadn't been there training for weeks and was tapering instead of adding distance to each swim. (I was swimming about 80K/week. I started dropping my yardage about two weeks out. My week in Dover started off at 2-hours in the AM and an easy 30 minutes each PM. The day before my swim I swam 30 in the AM, and about the same in the afternoon. #2 was that I drank (GASP) Gatorade every 15 minutes and Ultra Fuel on the top of every hour. I was also certain to fail because I wasn't using MAXIM. To this day I've never tasted the stuff. It may be the greatest supplement ever, however, there was no way I was going to change my routine because someone said it was the latest and greatest.

    Where was I going with this??????

    Swim fast.

    Chris

    IronMiketortugassthomasmiklcct
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    We picked up Carbopro's Meta Salt before SCAR this year. It did a great job of preventing cramps (for me) and heat exhaustion symptoms for my kayaker.

    ssthomas

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • Infinit every 30 minutes. I like some coke towards the end if it can be arranged.

  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited October 2017

    Have now switched to UCan Raspberry and Cranberry, 1 scoop in 250 ml water, on the hour, supplemented by black tea with a teaspoon of fruit sugar on the half hour if I ask for it. No solid food. Takes me too long to eat it and I don't find it beneficial. Will have this cold in water above 19C and would prefer it warm, (150cold/100ml hot water) in temps below this. Tried this on two big swims this summer, up to 16 hours, and it works, so I'm keeping it simple in future. :)

    pavlicovflystorms
  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber

    4 scoops CarboPro and a dash of whey protein into a 24 ounce bottle. Mixed with either apple juice or NUUN electrolytes. I drink 8 ounces every feed, which is every 30 minutes (i.e. one bottle lasts 1.5 hours, or three feeds). That's roughly 250 calories/hour. I tend to alternate the apple juice with electrolytes for variety. After some time, I desire solids: risotto seems to do the trick. I also like to throw in carrots and cookies for variety if needed. I upgrade to caffeinated NUUN when I get sleepy, and CarboPro Motivator pills when I start to fall asleep while swimming. I still add liquid infant Advil to my feed bottles when I need it. On long swims, it's scheduled. On shorter ones, it's as requested. I never exceed more than 600 mg of Advil every 6 hours.

    KatieBunBridget
  • pavlicovpavlicov NYC USASenior Member
    edited October 2017

    My feeding plan usually starts days before the swim.

    Days before the swim: Drink plenty of electrolytes. Like a lot. Make sure I am not thirsty.

    Eat plenty in the evenings so I don't wake up hungry in the morning.

    Reduce simple carbs or any carbs (I don't eat many carbs to start with) in the days coming up.

    Day before swim. Only complex carbs in small amount, very little vegies. Mostly protein. Burger!

    Before sleep night before swim: 2 scoops of UCAN in about 400ml water.
    In the morning: 2 scoops of UCAN in about 400ml water. I slice of bread with avocado and turkey (if there is time before swim).
    45min before the start of the swim: 2 scoops of UCAN in about 400ml water.
    On top of the hour (starts either 30min into the swim or 45min into the swim): 1.5 scoop of any UCAN that is available (but not with protein) in about 250ml water
    On bottom of the hour: as much water I feel like drinking with UCAN Hydrate electrolytes (1 pack for about one bottle - 500ml)

    NO solids. After about 5h of swimming, I will ask once in a while for UCAN with protein on top of the hour instead of without the protein. Probably every 2-3h or so.

    I have swam longest about 9h with this feeding plan.

    Disclaimer: I am an UCAN ambassador and if interested, I have a private 10% coupon for those who would like to try it out. But I don't feed UCAN because I am an ambassador. I am an ambassador because I feed UCAN (and this way I can have coupon for myself).

    BridgetDocScottflystorms
  • SamSam Member

    So I've read back through this thread and the http://marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/33 thread but I'm not 100% on my feeding query.

    It seems that feeding plans are very personal but as a rule of thumb feeding every 20mins - 40 mins seems the average. But what kind of distance should you be doing before considering such a strict feeding plan? Obviously a 10km will possibly only require 1 feed (or even none). I'm going to be swimming 11 miles next in September but I'm still not sure that i'll need to stop my paddler every 30 minutes for a drink etc... It just seems a bit excessive. I was thinking of 3 feeds (being water and a gel) on our around the 5km mark. Does that seem reasonable?

    Bridget
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited July 2018

    @Sam, you're spot on when you say feeding plans are individual. No two responses here are the same..... that's because they're all developed on a trial and error basis. Only you can find out what works for you. I know I'd probably chuck up if I fed every 20 minutes, too much for me. For some, that's perfect. Equally, there are some people who can do very long swims on mostly water. Hydration is really important, before, during and after. The rest you have to find out the best way, by trying different things and different intervals during long training swims.

    You could try one of the above mentioned carb mixes.... I know UCan comes in sachets as well as big tubs, just as an example......and see if it agrees with you. There are loads of suggestions here. You might be a person who prefers solid food. That's something you'll find out in training. Getting it right is just as important and as individual as the actual swim training. Nobody can give you a definitive plan for either. Get in the water and try some of it. If something makes you throw up, maybe it's not for you. Then you try something else....etc. Best of luck.

    Sam
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    @Sam Temperature and exertion level can also factor into how often one needs to feed. I'm generally pretty hungry and thirsty at the end of a 5K, so I wouldn't attempt to go much further without feeding. In a longer swim, I need to start refueling proactively, so I don't get hungry, dehydrated or end up bonking. Coming back from a bonk is difficult and will probably ruin your swim.

    I swam a 4-lap 10K a few years ago, feeding at the end of every lap. There was a guy lurking behind me who passed me while I was feeding and skipped all of the feed stops, getting himself about 75m ahead of me. With 750m to go, it was like he hit a wall. I passed him at 600m and finished several minutes ahead. I asked him why he didn't feed, he said he thought he could make it and wanted to try it without feeding. He discovered that he could go about 9K without feeding. Air temp 90s, water 80, he was probably pretty dehydrated as well, unless he'd been drinking lake water.

    Sam

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • SamSam Member

    @KatieBun - I agree that water is super important. I've been training with water and gels which seems to work for me. So I'm minded to stick with that combination but just needed to work out a feeding schedule. I agree with you that stopping every 20 minutes would see me being violently i'll. Thanks for your help.

    @wendyv34 really helpful again! Perhaps 5km is too long. I think my confusion has come from the 10k swims I've done where I've been comfortable with one feed at around the 7.5km mark. I think i'll have to be more proactive with the upcoming 11 mile swim, as you say, but can't fully determine how proactive i'll need to be. I'll trial a drink and gel every 50 minutes because that looks to be a happy compromise.

  • GlobalSwimmerGlobalSwimmer New York NYMember

    My two cents - no feeding for anything less than 10K or two hours, and feeds on the hour for anything longer - generally just a gatorade and a banana (or peanut butter as a reward after few hours in). Makes life easier for the crew! But as mentioned above, everyone is different - try, rinse and repeat

    MLambyBridget
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    I agree with Global Swimmer that feeding isn't truly necessary for swims shorter than two hours. Maybe some water or Gatorade if you feel like you need it. But a two hour....(or even three) swim isn't really "that long" in the OWS world imho. It would be like thinking you need to schedule feeds for a 10k run. But, CONDITIONS, and what your swim is "in the moment" are key as well. If you are training in a pool....you can easily go two hours without needing a feed. But two hours on a choppy lake? Or two hours in the ocean with 95 degree air and 88 degree water temp? Maybe a different scenario. And we are all different. Global Swimmer's mention of peanut butter makes me gag just thinking about it. :) Just remember, that you are sweating and you are burning calories. But YOU will need to figure out what works for you. And your body WILL tell you. MY reward on a long swim is a 24 ounce bottle of ice cold water on the top of my head. Someone else's may be a brownie. Figuring out this part of the puzzle is frustrating, but for ME, simple is best. If your stomach is bad, you will struggle. If you cramp, you are done. Hydration (More is best....we can pee in our shorts if we have to) and carbs are key. Steer clear of anchors in the gut. Have Fun!!! All the best,

    GlobalSwimmer
  • KatieMShawKatieMShaw Greenville SC USANew Member
    edited August 2019

    New here, and getting ready for 15k. I've been researching articles and nutrition journals...but wanted to reach out to those I aspire to and ask what you would do to prepare nutritionally for the Alligator Lighthouse Swim (warm water)?
    Any advise on: (1) what your feeds would consist of, (2) frequency of feeds, and (3) how would you have feeds administered; would be very helpful.
    I've searched older threads and info seems scattered/older so I thought I'd streamline here. Thank you for any tips!!

  • PaigeKiedingPaigeKieding Santa Barbara, CaliforniaMember

    My feeding plan is super simple: carbo pro with half vitamin water/half water every 30 minutes. Flat coke if I ever get seasick or I need a little caffeine. Everyone's body is different so just practice with a few different feeding plans and see what works best for you! Usually your feeder will toss you a bottle, which might be attached to a rope or dog leash.

    IronMikeevmo
  • Kate_AlexanderKate_Alexander Spring Lake, MichiganSenior Member

    This is news to me - that drinking large volumes of water, taking water on an empty stomach, and plain water itself are not the best way to hydrate. Instead it is better to ingest water "... along with amino acids, fats and minerals ... to help the body take up and retain more H2O."
    https://time.com/5646632/how-much-water-to-drink/

  • KatieMShawKatieMShaw Greenville SC USANew Member

    Thanks Kate and Paige! Just getting things together now! I’ve seen Rubbermaid water bottles suggested by other swimmers. Would you recommend the same?

    IronMike
  • aafairmanaafairman Los Angeles, CAMember

    Is there a national CarboPro shortage? After a year where I got all my liquid carbs the natural way (beer), I tried to replenish my stock this week only to find it very hard/expensive to come by. I know some people here are/were ambassadors - if you have any guidance, that would helpful. Alternatively, if you were a CarboPro devotee who has already found a generic brand that works similarly, I'd love a recommendation. CNP and I don't get along; I don't love Tailwind; the Nuun option is ridiculously overpriced. Like an artist, I want my calories to be a blank canvas that I can work with. TIA!

    evmoLakeBaggerIronMike
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited April 2021

    Cytosport (the same company behind Cytomax) makes a plain-unflavored maltodextrin product called CytoCarb. I haven't done an in-depth chemical analysis but plain maltodextrin is plain maltodextrin, and I can't tell any difference from CarboPro. It is available on Amazon.

    In the past I have also used generic maltodextrin, for example "Carbo Gain" by NOW Sports. It is nutritionally equivalent as far as I can tell, and extremely inexpensive, but the powder doesn't dissolve as quickly as CarboPro, Maxim, or CytoCarb.

    LakeBagger
  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    Shoot. I swear by Carbopro and I think you are right, I just checked and cannot find it anywhere! I wonder why!

  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited April 2021

    Interesting. CNP Pro Fuel, another equivalent of Carbopro, also appears to be unavailable. It's certainly out of stock on the actual CNP website.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Meanwhile, I'm over here taking in little pepperonis, Babybel cheeses and Justin's mini dark chocolate and peanut butter cups during my marathons. ;)

    BogdanZJSwimSolowendyv34

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    I recently became aware of Carbo Rocket. I ordered samples of several products to try out, although I haven't had a training opportunity long enough to need extra calories yet. The product that caught my eye was "Half Evil" with 333 calories per serving, it comes in flavors (much like adding Carbo Pro to something flavored) and unflavored. Some formulas have caffeine, (like adding caffeinated nuun to the mix). I'll report back once I've formed an opinion. https://carborocket.com/

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • LakeBaggerLakeBagger Central OregonSenior Member

    I checked out the carborocket and found their note under FAQ about the importance of the 2:1 maltodextrin fructose ratio. This is great! My understanding is that the amount of maltodextrin you can absorb is limited by the transporter it uses, but fructose uses a different transporter/mechanism, so you can absorb more calories per hour if you use both. For an interesting read on the topic see, https://sweatscience.com/maximizing-carbohydrate-absorption-during-exercise/
    I’m psyched to try the carbo rocket as I had noticed most companies have not yet incorporated this newer research into their products.

    evmo
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited April 2021

    @LakeBagger said: My understanding is that the amount of maltodextrin you can absorb is limited by the transporter it uses, but fructose uses a different transporter/mechanism, so you can absorb more calories per hour if you use both.

    Another way to achieve this is to mix a bit of high-fructose fruit juice (e.g., apple juice) with plain maltodextrin.

    LakeBaggerKatieBun
  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member

    @KatieBun MyProtein sells really cheap generic maltodextrin - does the same job as CNP for me, and is much cheaper. I mix it with some Ribena and am good to go.

    KatieBunmiklcct
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member

    @KarenT said:
    @KatieBun MyProtein sells really cheap generic maltodextrin - does the same job as CNP for me, and is much cheaper. I mix it with some Ribena and am good to go.

    I agree it's a great alternative. I have some of that, plus a giant tub of CNP, plus a new UCan, Karen, so I'm fixed for a while......not that there have been many opportunities to deplete my stock. :D

    KarenT
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    I mixed Carbo Rocket lemonade flavor (caffeinated) at 1/3 strength (+ 1 nuun lemon/lime) for a shorter swim yesterday, no complaints. I'm hoping to get in some longer swims this month to give it a real test at full strength.

    LakeBagger

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • ArgentArgent UtrechtMember

    If you use something like maxim or Carbopro for feeding, would you still need to electrolytes to that drink? (tablets perhaps?) Or is it not safe to mix.

  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoCharter Member

    @Argent said:
    If you use something like maxim or Carbopro for feeding, would you still need to electrolytes to that drink? (tablets perhaps?) Or is it not safe to mix.

    If you looks on the ingredient list of almost any fancy sports drink it is likely maltodextrin + fructose + electrolytes + whatever their special sauce is (amino acids, yak sweat, the tears of orphans), so yeah it's safe to mix.

    That said if you are mixing things you should always pay attention to the ingredient list, just to make sure aren't doubling up or getting things you don't want or need e.g. make sure that "electrolyte tablet" doesn't come with bonus carbs.

    I've used Gu Roctane on all my long swims because I have been too lazy to figure out how to make carbo pro taste good, and honestly after 9 hours in an ocean swim felt like I was ingesting a fair amount of salt from the environment and could have perhaps done with less electrolytes in my feeds, a lake swim in hot weather may be a different beast though.

    evmo

    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    Anyone have a suggestion of where to purchase Carbo Pro? The website wants $23 for shipping...

  • j9swimj9swim CharlestonSenior Member

    If you were a former user of CarboPro what have you replaced it with?

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    I just keep using carbopro...

  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    Carbo Rocket is a good alternative if you can't find the 'pro. It comes in flavors and plain. They frequently have "try it for free" deals where you just pay shipping.

    LakeBagger

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    For what it's worth. Here's my go-to. I mix it with Gatorade. Believe it or not, Ovaltine is also a nice treat on long swims.

    https://www.amazon.com/Clif-Shot-Caffeine-Performance-Endurance/dp/B007D58WZK/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B007D58WZK&th=1

  • RaDelBlaRaDelBla United StatesNew Member

    That brought back memories from the movie "A Christmass Story" with Orphan Annie Secret Society's decoder pin. I'll give Ovaltine a try.

    MLamby
  • LakeBaggerLakeBagger Central OregonSenior Member

    @wendyv34 said:
    Carbo Rocket is a good alternative if you can't find the 'pro. It comes in flavors and plain.

    I had the raspberry yesterday in an ocean swim. Yum, very good contrast to the salt. The plain I mix with peppermint tea, also quite refreshing on salty swims.

    MLambyKatieBunwendyv34
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited May 2022

    @LakeBagger said:

    I had the raspberry yesterday in an ocean swim. Yum, very good contrast to the salt. The plain I mix with peppermint tea, also quite refreshing on salty swims.

    >

    I feel the same about raspberry and cranberry UCan. Slightly tart but sweet enough to counteract the salt.

    LakeBagger
  • AngieSwimsAngieSwims United StatesMember

    @wendyv34 and @LakeBagger Thanks for the product endorsement. I just ordered the 6 pack of flavors to try them out. I've been trying to do "real food" feeds exclusively, but seem to get stuck at the 100 cal./hour mark with digestibility. I had been using homemade Ucan for feeds all last year, but after a bit of a vomit fest can't even think of doing Ucan or the homemade stuff again anytime soon. (Oatmeal slurry and rice pudding seem to be doing well, but calories just aren't enough.)

    LakeBaggerwendyv34
  • KrisLarsenKrisLarsen NorwayNew Member

    @RaDelBla said:
    That brought back memories from the movie "A Christmass Story" with Orphan Annie Secret Society's decoder pin. I'll give Ovaltine a try.

    Just don't "shoot your eye out"! :-D

    RaDelBla
  • hpyswmrhpyswmr San Francisco Bay - SERCMember
    edited June 2022

    Any suggestions on a good replacement for Carbo Pro? Looking for something w/o flavor.. as I've
    been using Carbo Pro + mix with your fav electrolyte drink mix + mix with other stuff... Nothing secretive or rocket science on my drink mix.. just been using this recipe for 15+ years and it works for me. e.g. feed every 30 min.

    Would love some ideas on what I can use to replace my beloved Carbo Pro, as you can't buy it anymore???? Love to hear your ideas and suggestions..

    I have super sensitive stomach + gluten free (live a GF diet.. not by choice as my internals have made this decision for me)...

    Signed
    - Just smile and swim

  • I use Infinit (infinitnutrition dot com).

    You can customize it all sorts of ways, and they have GF options.
    Message me directly if you'd like more detailed info.

    S

    @hpyswmr said:
    Any suggestions on a good replacement for Carbo Pro? Looking for something w/o flavor.. as I've
    been using Carbo Pro + mix with your fav electrolyte drink mix + mix with other stuff... Nothing secretive or rocket science on my drink mix.. just been using this recipe for 15+ years and it works for me. e.g. feed every 30 min.

    Would love some ideas on what I can use to replace my beloved Carbo Pro, as you can't buy it anymore???? Love to hear your ideas and suggestions..

    I have super sensitive stomach + gluten free (live a GF diet.. not by choice as my internals have made this decision for me)...

    Signed
    - Just smile and swim

    hpyswmr
  • ruthruth New Jersey, USAMember

    @hpyswmr said:
    Any suggestions on a good replacement for Carbo Pro? Looking for something w/o flavor.. as I've
    been using Carbo Pro + mix with your fav electrolyte drink mix + mix with other stuff... Nothing secretive or rocket science on my drink mix.. just been using this recipe for 15+ years and it works for me. e.g. feed every 30 min.

    I mix corn starch and water with a flavoring (or not) of my choice. I use 1/4 cup of corn starch (just regular baking aisle corn starch) to 8 oz liquid. If I'm swimming in fresh water I add 1/2 teaspoon of Morton Lite Salt, which is half potassium, half sodium. You might try it, if you hate it at least it was cheap :)

    hpyswmr
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