110 miles, 53 hours: Questions for Diana Nyad

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Comments

  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    evmo said:
    "Bartlett said that currents varied, and that the team had worked Nyad sideways and northward through the currents, a technique called crabbing. “Everyone is saying, Wow, she was going fast, how is that possible?” Bartlett said. “The currents were going fast.”"

    If she had the currents pushing her to Key West it seems that there wouldn't be a whole lot of crabbing going on.
  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    evmo said:
    "One, Janet Hinkle, a licensed Key West boat captain, said she got the call at the last minute. She said she had met Nyad in 2011, providing her with a home to live in before a swim. Hinkle had never observed any swim, but she said she got tips from Munatones and said she was unbiased."

    Well it seems like at least one of the observers got some "tips". However, it doesn't sound like there was enough time for either of the observers to receive sufficient training.
  • LisaLisa Temporary Suspension
    edited September 2013
    bobswims said:

    Why is it that DN supporters seem to abruptly show up on this forum and then just as fast adios? Frankly I think their input on Diana and her swim is useful. Not so useful is attacking the people who have in good faith come forward with questions?

    I am not a Diana supporter. I am not a Diana anything. I didn't follow this swim, nor any of her past attempts. Whether she truly did this one or not doesn't particularly affect my life in any way. I do not care. I have generally avoided getting involved in any of this. Lots of other things to do with my time! But when I happen to drop by the site and see people questioning a swimmer's ability based on whether they completed the Channel, and surmising it should be a "simple thing" for someone of their "claimed ability", I find that a tad bit offensive. I know great swimmers who have failed at the Channel, then succeeded at other swims that are more difficult. What it has to do with Cuba-to-Florida is beyond me and serves to invite unwarranted denigration of the past, rather than examination of the present. Not cool in my book.
  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    Just want to say a public Thank You to @b9chris. Both his open comments and private ones have been professional, patient, and informative. He is a shining example of the transparency we all have been looking for. Furthermore, he's helped me towards my goal of making my next swim just that much better.

    Thank you.

    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.

  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    @jroyer Well done with that analysis. Your look at the bearing direction is a new direction. It is amazing how such a small set of data can yield so much information. I hope your search for currents is more fruitful than mine has been thusfar.

    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.

  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoCharter Member
    I am a slow swimmer, but I recently participated in a swim where my average speed was 5.5km/h because of the currents involved. The only time during the swim that I truly appreciated how fast I (or rather the water I was in) was going was when I encountered a buoy and could see the water streaming past it. The only resemblance I had to Trent Grimsey at the time I was approaching his velocity was the fact that he and I are both Australian and we both wear jammers. Our strokes and stroke rates are worlds apart.

    The point being that the GPS tracks and the video of Ms Nyad swimming at a given apparent speed form one half of the picture of the swim. Without accurate data* on the currents encountered there is no way to draw meaningful conclusions about the swim from only those sources that are contrary to the published account.

    *I would allow that if the pattern of the currents in a particular location are well known, then knowledge of the specifics on a given day may not be important if the implied currents fall well outside of an established set of norms

    In so far as it is possible on an internet forum I would prefer to see a discussion that does not jump to hasty conclusions, other than that I have no horse in this race.

    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer

  • How fast do you think Diana would've travelled if she'd simply flipped over on her back and floated once she hit the Gulf Stream?

    BTW, this is the best moderated, most entertaining, educational internet forum string I've ever followed.

    Some of you might appreciate my tongue-in-cheek blog post - http://tricoachmartin.blogspot.com/2013/09/diana-nyad-gulf-stream-and-olympic.html
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoCharter Member

    How fast do you think Diana would've travelled if she'd simply flipped over on her back and floated once she hit the Gulf Stream?

    BTW, this is the best moderated, most entertaining, educational internet forum string I've ever followed.

    Some of you might appreciate my tongue-in-cheek blog post - http://tricoachmartin.blogspot.com/2013/09/diana-nyad-gulf-stream-and-olympic.html

    Olympic 10km swims are in current neutral water so not really an apple to apples comparison.

    If you want an even more extreme example, the record for MIMS (a 28.5 mile swim) is ~5h:45m or nearly 5mph (8km/h) sustained. Current assistance can indeed be awesome (heck see my previous post)

    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer

  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    ADMIN NOTE: I deleted several posts that were not germane to the current topic, the last of which was a re-posting of a within-Forum private message, which is not allowed.

    No more follow-up posts on the points made by @Lisa. Thank you.
  • bobswimsbobswims OregonCharter Member
    If a person continues a discussion started in a thread by improperly sending an unwanted and unsolicited private message, either the private message should be allowed to be republished, or the person sending offensive personal attacks under the guise of a "private message" ON THIS FORUM then the person doing such should be banned from the site.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    The preferred course of action in the instance of a private message that the recipient finds to be offensive is to contact the Admins, rather than posting it publicly. Thank you.
  • Hey all, I'm not an open water swimmer, just a ~1 mile pool swimmer who happened to develop Diana's website. I hope what I've provided here helps a bit with fact-checking, and I've passed more data on privately to @evmo, @malinak and a couple others so they can fact-check that. I think I've contributed about as much as I can here besides "You guys are so impressive!" so I'm gonna bow out unless needed further.

    Before I go I want to make just one quick appeal. When the Boston bombers hit my hometown's marathon earlier this year, I wanted answers - a good and reasonable feeling. But when members of an internet forum (Reddit in this case) wanted answers, they took it a step further and jumped to conclusions. They posted their evidence, their analyses, and over about a week built it up to identify what they believed to be the 2 bombers. Even though the experts (the FBI in this case) were doing their own parallel investigation, they concluded they had the right answer, and announced their conclusions with certainty. They posted their faces, their names, their addresses. Since then, one of the 2 has turned up dead, a presumed suicide, and the other's family left the country to get away from the in-person harassment. Days later, the real Boston bombers were identified by the FBI - neither of the 2 identified on Reddit were actually guilty of this crime. I doubt there's anyone here who hasn't heard the rest of that story.

    I love data, and I love science - skepticism is good. But asserting a conclusion comes with risk - often asymmetric risk in that the person making the assertion risks little, while the target risks a great deal. What's at stake here is much less - no one's life hangs in the balance. But someone's legacy does, and I hope all those who feel themselves starting to jump to conclusions stop and think of what's at stake. What if you were the one who had tried so many times most of who you knew had given up on you. What if even you had given up several times, promising begging friends not to try again. And then, one day, you pulled it off - probably even surprising yourself? What if it was you.

    Be reasonable everybody, and be good to each other. And once again - you all impress me.
  • For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    "At her post-swim news conference on Tuesday, Nyad admitted that she had not been rooting for McCardel and that she was miffed some members of her team would jump ship to work for a competitor"

    Apparently Diana Nyad lives on Planet Nyad, where special-needs physics and justifications abound. She does not take our sport seriously and appears to be merely interested in being the entertaining "motivational speaker" and selling her story.

    Regrettably, I bought one of her "extreme dream" teeshirts during the original attempt a few years ago with the belief that this was a real attempt by a kindred spirit. This piece of fabric has been relegated to wiping the toilet bowl...
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    @b9chris - I want to join @malinaka's public Thank you. I respect and appreciate you coming on here and contributing as you have - openly and thoughtfully. Frankly it's a great credit to Diana's team.

    All the best with your web dev business - and your swimming too!

    Evan
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    I have to make another Admin announcement following @evmo's, and I'd like everyone to take note.

    We have a PRIVATE Message system. The vast majority of members respect this. It's one of the benefits of actually joining the forum, rather than lurking. With the private message system you can have direct contact with some of the world's best marathon swimmers, make new friends, have sidebar discussions, ask advice or offer help.

    We have had two violations related to this thread. Forum rules are now explicit. Violating the privacy of the message system will lead to a no-appeal immediate ban and the violator will not be allowed to re-join the forum.

    I'd like to join @evmo & everyone else in thanks to @b9chris for his public and private engagement and openness, and hopefully he'll stay active as a member, maybe we can get him to sign up for his first 10k!

    loneswimmer.com

  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    Lynnkub said:

    For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    From the start I was skeptical, if only because of her previous attempts. I found her blog and saw pictures of her being helped with putting on her suit. But even that didn't bother me, because I swear I remember her or her team stating that she'd be wearing the suit for this swim. I could even take the streamer, again, because I'm pretty sure she mentioned she'd be using it.

    But when I read that she went without food or drink for more than 7.5 hours on the second night, well, then I no longer believed anything coming out of her camp. I cannot imagine someone in that state of exhaustion could go that long without at least water, and I don't believe the medical professionals in her flotilla would allow that. Her supporters or crew, the few that have come on here, haven't helped her case any either, with the sole exception of @b9chris, whom I would like to thank also.

    I don't know if we'll ever know for sure. But I learned that should I ever attempt a swim that's not been done before, I'm certainly going to have independent observers' reports and lots of evidence available for all of you to review!

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • smithsmith O-H-I-OMember
    Kudos to Evan for starting this thread. It has drawn no less than worldwide attention. Hopefully, this discussion and debate will move our sport in the positive direction it deserves. Marathon swimmers are a special breed. The breadth and depth of this discussion reflects that. From my perspective, it is among the best substantive discussions I've witnessed regarding a sporting event in a long time.

    Lactate is for wimps.

  • Lynnkub said:

    For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    "At her post-swim news conference on Tuesday, Nyad admitted that she had not been rooting for McCardel and that she was miffed some members of her team would jump ship to work for a competitor"

    One COULD interpret that as social engineering or perhaps a confidence trick. Legitimize yourself by comparing yourself to other professionals.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat
    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    @evmo, where? Is this meeting with SBCSA?

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • rckayakrckayak Westchester County, N.Y.Member
    Media Coverage. Monday (09-09-2013) at 8:00 P.M. EST Anderson Cooper (AC360) on CNN will be covering the Nyad post-swim story. I cannot vouch for the show but will tell you that he people I know there always have been better journalists than entertainers. I encourage folks to watch it.
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member
    evmo said:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat

    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
    @evmo, this is great. Please let her know that we are not "haters", that we are not being petty and that the questions are not due to "sour grapes". I am sure she understands that such an incredibly unprecedented swim needs to be vetted and verified for posterity and to aid anyone who may wish to follow in her footsteps in the future.
  • NatalieswimsNatalieswims Orange County, CAMember
    evmo said:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat

    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
    Great forum :-) ...didn't know it was around until a car ride with SBCSA people yesterday swimming SLO county piers.
    Does anyone know who will be at this meeting?
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    Diana Nyad and her team. A moderator. @Evmo & I and some well-known people to you all, some of whom are also members of the forum, and some others have been invited. Currently close to 20 people that I've seen on the invitation list.

    loneswimmer.com

  • JimeboyJimeboy Temporary Suspension
    Very cool if she meets some of you and answers some questions. I can't wait.
  • I hope someone brings a video camera and an "independent observer".
  • sylmarinosylmarino San FranciscoMember
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/09/sports/questions-and-doubt-after-a-record-swim-from-cuba-to-florida.html?pagewanted=2

    "...the tactics she employs — like letting her crew remove her shark suit and apply lotions. Many swimmers say those violate the most common rules of the sport."

    Yes, that's called an 'assisted' swim and should be recorded as such and for the other deviations away from Channel Rules (yes, I know she didn't say she was following Channel Rules) - they all need to be recorded.

    Just as she wants to be known to be the first to swim without a shark cage, the next person should be able to say they are the first to swim it unassisted or with less assistance than DN used (directional streamer or without people helping in/out of a suite, etc.) or use the same assistance and swam it faster/slower, whatever.

    It was an assisted swim. State the assistance so that the next person can swim it and say they were first to do it without a shark cage and streamer and blah, blah, blah until you get to EC clean if possible.

    I'm not so sure why that is so hard for DN and her camp to understand this. They were very clear to finally change their positioning on this swim "first without a shark cage" instead of "first [ever]".
  • MvGMvG Brussels (BE) and Lith (NL)Charter Member
    rckayak said:

    Media Coverage. Monday (09-09-2013) at 8:00 P.M. EST Anderson Cooper (AC360) on CNN will be covering the Nyad post-swim story. I cannot vouch for the show but will tell you that he people I know there always have been better journalists than entertainers. I encourage folks to watch it.

    Somebody plse post the link. I'd like to go to bed now...
  • MvGMvG Brussels (BE) and Lith (NL)Charter Member
    Btw sincere thanks to Evan and Donal for animating this debate so well - and for going into the lion's den... - to @malinaka and others for some essential number crunching, and to @b9chris for having been such a great levelheaded contributor from DN's team.

    Who said that open water swimming is not a spectator sport?!
  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    Got another great comment on my blog from an Xtreme Dreamer:
    You sir, are a sexist pig you claim to respect Nyad swim but you infact belittle her with comments like this and I quote;

    IronMike September 4
    Charter Member 7 Likes
    Yes, "Pro" swimmer, but add in her feed stops of 12 min long, and those stops where her crew would clothe her and put her make-up on...but I guess you're right since she made up all that time on night two what with not needing water or feed for 7+ hours.


    Put her make up on??? It's called sun block. You said make up because you were being sexist - She's a woman so she wears make up! Pathetic!

    I would love to see you do that swim all the way - without sunblock.
    You are just a bitter little no-body who has to rain on someone's parade because you have no parade of your own.
    Do one - Ironpatheticmike!
    Uh-oh! My sense of humor was a bit much for Realswimmerfan (who also has an interesting email, which I'll not put on here for his/her protection).

    For the record, I was jokingly calling DN's jellyfish preventative gel "make-up" because in one of the videos (), it looks like a make-up artist putting make-up on her. It was not sunblock that I was making fun of.

    Ironpatheticmike, I like that!

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member
    So you don't like us women, Ironpatheticmike???
    That saddens me.
    If we arrange a parade for you, will you change your sexist ways?
  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    As long as you all parade in your bikinis, @JBirrrd.

    I joke of course (but if you're willing...)

    ;)

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member
    edited September 2013
    That was good...laughing at your sexist pig humor.
    I guess that makes me Jpatheticbirrrd.
  • JimeboyJimeboy Temporary Suspension
    Are you guys serious about this or just kidding around? I must be missing something. I kind of agree with her gist but I do not condone calling anyone a pig. ;) Can't wait for tonight and tomorrow.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    CNN segment that aired earlier today:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2013/09/09/nyad-doubters-marquez-newday.cnn&hpt=hp_c3&from_homepage=yes

    I and some others were interviewed for a segment that will appear this evening on ABC World News with Diane Sawyer (check local listings).

    There will also be segments airing tomorrow on the NBC Today Show, and on CNN's New Day.
  • IronMikeIronMike Arlington, VACharter Member
    @Jimeboy, the quoted comment was seriously left on my latest blog post. Other than that, nothing I said about parades was serious. ;)

    BL: if DN were a man who had helpers in the water applying jellyfish gel, I still would have called it make up. (Also much easier than typing "jellyfish preventative gel" every damn time!)

    Please join the Lake Issyk Kul Swimming Federation on FB!

  • Diana Nyad and her team. A moderator. @Evmo & I and some well-known people to you all, some of whom are also members of the forum, and some others have been invited. Currently close to 20 people that I've seen on the invitation list.

    I suggest someone video it for those that can't attend.
  • AnthonyMcCarleyAnthonyMcCarley Berwyn, PACharter Member
    The analogy I have been using with non-marathon swimmers is: This is like me claiming that I broke the world record for running a mile, and… you are only allowed the watch the beginning and end of the run and in the middle I take credit for running faster than Usain Bolt can run 100m… yet my pace for the parts you were able to see were about a third of that speed. My story would deserve skepticism, wouldn't it? The analogy seems to work (at least with people that know me).
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    @evmo well a link to this controversy has hit the Drudge Report, they listed the Daily Mail UK article.

  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    Grace van der Byl on local TV in San Diego:

    This is a really, really good interview by one of the sweetest, most genuine people I've ever known. Not to mention an incredible swimmer.

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1649263564001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAA5PNMME~,K3tOT-PuafsBOFardsNAXlIchcEkjy_p&bctid=2660295195001
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    lakespray said:

    a link to this controversy has hit the Drudge Report

    I'm guessing this site's bandwidth is not going to handle this.
  • sylmarinosylmarino San FranciscoMember
    Great interview with Grace - thank you for posting. I love that she calls it like she sees it - this was an assisted swim so don't call it unassisted.
  • mrfinbarrmrfinbarr Charter Member
    In my opinion the team at this stage has confirmed this is most certaintly an assisted swim, she was helped by an ocean current which moved a 1.5mph swimmer at 7+mph. This places it firmly in the category of Martin Strel's epics rather than Penny Palfrey's
  • mjstaplesmjstaples Atlanta, GA, USMember
    Great interview on ABC world news!
  • JimeboyJimeboy Temporary Suspension
    @evmo you don't look half as hideous as I pictured you might. ;) nice interview on CNN
  • rosemarymintrosemarymint Charleston, SCCharter Member
    I can't find the interview on CNN other than the short segment, but here is a link to the ABC segment:

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/09/diana-nyad-to-confront-cuba-swim-skeptics/

  • paulmpaulm Senior Member
    Does anyone know if the google earth download of the track on DN's site- a manually produced document (working off manually produced cordinates ) or a copy of a spot track ???
  • I am disappointed. I really thought that we would be the first web forum to bring the entire internet crashing down and dying a horrible death by overloading it, but it looks like it will survive.

    Next time I suggest that we get Kim Kardashian to claim that she swam from Cuba to Florida in a skimpy bikini. That should do it.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • Zero current, Diana Nyad no way could have done the swim. Look at the video of her swimming. Slow. Penny Palfrey, zero current, easily could have done the swim. Penny is strong and fast. I have escorted many swimmers across various channels, including Penny in Hawaii, Caymans and her Cuba attempt. Question to the Open Water Swimming Community. How can you ever get a level playing field? Diana could have perhaps got the once in a lifetine perfect current where she could have floated on her back the whole way and made it while Penny got serious cross currents pulling her out into the Atlantic and didn't, even though she was a much stronger and faster swimmer. All this is very confusing. Open water swimming is still evolving and I'm stoked we're having this discussion.
This discussion has been closed.