Nutrition

IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member
edited March 2012 in General Discussion
And here is the promised start to our "Nutrition" discussion...
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  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandAdmin
    I having chocolate for breakfast as I'm reading this. :)
    phodgeszoho
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member
    Chocolate is not just for breakfast anymore...
  • SharkoSharko Sonoma County, CACharter Member
    A quart of steel cut oats 1-2 hours before a long swim....carb drink before jumping in and then a carb drink that stays down at the hour and then every 1/2 hour. General nutrition should include high quality protein after a long work-out with vegies and no refined carbs in the evening such as bread...do that in the morning or at lunch...etc, etc, etc I have done a lot of this so ask questions of my or others at the South End Rowing Club.

    Sharko

    "I never met a shark I didn't like"

  • Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim? I'll be doing 27k one day and another 27k the next. Are there different protein or carb considerations? Sharko - thanks for mentioning no bread for the evening meal.

    I'm a newbie to these distances so welcome any input.
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    said:

    Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim?

    Last year I swam 7 consecutive days to cover the 120 miles of 8 Bridges... between 4 hours and 9.5 hours per day. I kept to what has become my standard feed plan... all liquid 285 cal/hr. Recovery is important... PROTEIN!, as is keeping well hydrated between stages.
    DanSimonelli

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandAdmin
    Dave, obviously no problem sleeping with all the maltodextrin buzzing around inside?

    I can never swim the night after a long training swim if using malto carbs. Did a 20k training recently and I only used 1 bottle of Maxim, I used more of my smoothie instead and I actually slept that night. Of course after day 2 I'm sure you would have slept anyway.
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    Its not the malto that keeps me up at night. Every swim I've ever done > 11 hours has left me in an achy feverish state for the night... sweats, mouth throat sinus sore, lungs hurting etc...
    I love this sport!
    phodgeszoho

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandAdmin
    I'd like to hear more discussion surrounding and subsequent to the Peter Attia webinar during the winter, which evmo covered on his blog. The basic thrust was carbs bad, protein good and a ketogenic diet is best for maximised energy utilization during a long swim, once you are already keto-adapted to this diet.

    I haven't seen any arguments with the science and evmo has followed up on it, but has anyone changed or considered doing it this year for a swim? Or has anyone already done it coldish water? Which was a question that didn't arise on the webinar.

    One of the things Peter Attia mentioned was fat loss, something might be great in theory or even practice but not much use to those of us in cold water who need our bioprene. I do know one aspirant who changed to the Atkin's diet this winter and after the first week adjustment, had no energy deficiency problems and he of course lost some weight. But afaik, his wasn't a long term to do this for his Channel swim.

    I recently (last week) found a malto/superstarch/5% protein http://www.sponser.ch/g3.cms/s_page/79220/s_name/productdetail/s_level/10030/s_product/1035, but that's still mostly similar to how marathon swims have been done (and I won't get to try it on a sea swim for months until the sea warms up more anyway).

    And finally, as evmo pointed out, we all love our carbs, right? So... any further thoughts?
    DanSimonelli
  • SharkoSharko Sonoma County, CACharter Member
    I recently have been using Malto, Waxy Maize and Whey Protein...seems to satisfy the energy and heat needs....Waxy Maize seems to burn longer than the Malto and Whey seems to give balance to the mix...tried it on a 49f swim from Pt Bonita to Aquatic Park on February 8th of this year...might be what I use on my next swims???

    "I never met a shark I didn't like"

  • mrfinbarrmrfinbarr Charter Member
    Interesting comment @loneswimmer re the low carb option. I've been maintaining (well trying to anyway) a low carb diet since August last year but in order to lost weight rather than as a fuel supply source for marathon swims. I think the science behind it is straightforward enough: once your body goes into ketosis there's a energy supply there which will last much longer than the carbs contained in the blood supply, provided, of couse, you're carrying enough fat.

    Tomorrow I intend to do a 12k sea swim in Sandycove so I'll let you know how I get on with this fuel supply.
  • said:

    said:

    Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim?

    Last year I swam 7 consecutive days to cover the 120 miles of 8 Bridges... between 4 hours and 9.5 hours per day. I kept to what has become my standard feed plan... all liquid 285 cal/hr. Recovery is important... PROTEIN!, as is keeping well hydrated between stages.
    Thanks, Dave. One of my crew will be wearing the CIBOWS cap you gave me, a bit of inspiration every time I look up at the boat.

  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member
    bump. I'm researching now for a potential long swim next year, so thought I'd bring this back up to the top.
  • heartheart San Francisco, CACharter Member
    @holte2f, I use Vitargo and am very happy with it.
  • swimchica623swimchica623 Member
    edited December 2013
    @Ironmike how is your research going? I'm worried about my nutrition as well, going into 24 mile Tampa and too happy with gels and water (or water/Gatorade mix)for other swims up to 6 hours. I can't adjust to the maxim my training partners use, but I can eat gels till the cows come home!
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member
    So far so good, but all my research is with half apple juice/half water with a pinch of salt. I've yet to delve into the world of powdered carb mixes. ;)
  • im geting ready for a busy season in 2014 and still dont know with what can of carb energy drink to go with...as far as i know you cant find Maxim anywhere in ireland ...so wich one is the best and where to get it guyssss????
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandAdmin
    @JohnyG, Maxim seems to have disappeared last two seasons. You can easily get Vyomax Maxi Carbopro online, it's the same thing, it comes in a huge 5kg tub. You can also find Sponsor Competition and Sponsor Long Energy in a lot of the triathlete shops also High Five which has a 20% protein also. I have used all and they are fine, (I just don't like High Five myself).
  • thank you Donal as always you have the answer ..legend
  • NiekNiek Heiloo, NetherlandsCharter Member
    edited December 2013
    For the UK http://energysports.co.uk/webpage.php?ChildID=104 they ship to Northern Ireland.
    The Maxim company website is http://maxim-nrg.com/content/us/where_to_buy with more national retailers listed that you could ask for if they ship to Ireland.

    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!

  • I'm a big cytomax fan... add a little caffeine to the mix and I'm good to go.
  • ttriventtriven Senior Member
    With the active support of Yakult, FINA Official Partner, 23 of the most well-known specialists in this area discussed from December 13-15, 2013 in the British capital the challenges and strategies concerning the nutritional aspects of the FINA athletes in the five disciplines – Swimming, Diving, Water Polo, Synchronised Swimming and Open Water Swimming.

    Yes, but what were the results? How do we get access to the discussion?

    http://www.fina.org/H2O/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4293:fina-debates-aquatics-nutrition-in-london&catid=225:highlight&Itemid=179
  • Is anyone familiar with the product 'maltotraining' by Punch Power? Is the product as good as the original Maxim?
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    Maxim is pure maltodextrin. If Product X is also pure maltodextrin, then it is as good as Maxim.
  • Just to add my own recent experience for my first long swim. I used Carbopro while training and during my 8bridges swim, just added a little fruit flavor of Miwadi blackcurrant (it's an Irish thing) for taste and it worked really well, really appreciate the advice from this thread. Ordered very easily from Amazon in the US.
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandAdmin
    @daveyswims, I read that as you could get Miwadi on Amazon US! I brought my Miwadi to NY for MIMS. :-)
  • @loneswimmer, No, got the Carbopro on Amazon, had to get the Miwadi smuggled in ;)
  • swimmer25kswimmer25k Charter Member
    Lots of stuff to wade through. I'm pretty simple:

    Use whatever doesn't make you puke.
    SydneD
  • JonMLJonML Member
    Has anyone tried this: http://static.abbottnutrition.com/cms-prod/abbottnutrition.com/img/Vital-1.5-Cal.pdf ? It's a medical product designed for people who can't eat anything normal. The dietician who recommended it to me says it doesn't taste like much of anything, but packs a lot of nutrition into a small volume. She also says it doesn't contain anything on the Olympic banned substances list. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has tried either this or something else that's designed primarily for medical, not consumer, use.
  • msathletemsathlete Victoria, British Colubia, CanadaSenior Member

    I'm looking to pull together a nutrition plan for a 50 hour solo lake swim and am wondering if anyone has suggestions. I have been function with the assumption I should feed every 30 minutes and consume app 300 calories per hour. My two main challenges are 1) I am a vegan and 2) length of time on the water - gel packs and sports drinks will get very tiring and will not be enough.

    Suggestions would be greatly appreciated

  • j9swimj9swim CharlestonSenior Member

    looking for some help on nutrition - it seems that carbopro won't be making hydra c5 in good flavors again this year and last year i used ucann mixed with carbopro but it still tasted chalky which i didn't really enjoy. Has anyone tried Skratch? Found it in a bike store (because there aren't any stores of marathon swimming) and it tastes good- similar levels of sugar and salt. it looks like a relatively clean product (see below) - any callouts good or bad? Thanks!

    • cane sugar, dextrose, sodium citrate, raspberries, citric acid, magnesium lactate, calcium citrate, potassium citrate, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C).

    http://www.skratchlabs.com/collections/drinks/products/exercise-hydration-mix?variant=466781057

  • Leonard_JansenLeonard_Jansen Charter Member

    The mixture you used last year and Skratch seem to be "chalk and cheese", as the English would say. Last year's was more of a complex carbo mix (albeit with maltodextrin's slightly odd properties) and Skratch is more of a simple carbo mix. If you liked the complex carbo mixture (other than the texture), you can always just get pure maltodextrin and then add some flavoring and electrolytes on your own. (Hammer "Endurolytes" are pretty good.) On a long swim, I'm pretty sure Skratch would give me stomach problems due to the amount of simple carbos.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • ChrisgreeneChrisgreene Mercersburg PA/Atlanta, GAMember

    I did a 30K swim on nothing but Maxim and had no hunger at all, I used to mix in goo but no more. Maxim gives some upset stomachs but not me, so of course you'd want to test it first. I swear by the stuff and plan 3 or 4 20+ mile swims this year on nothing but Maxim. And no, they aren't paying me, but I'm willing to listen. ;)

  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member
    edited January 2016

    j9swim said: looking for some help on nutrition - it seems that carbopro won't be making hydra c5 in good flavors again this year

    I started ordering custom blended powders from Infinit Nutrition about a year ago. You literally dial in exactly what you want using a cool slider bar interface. I imagine you could just look at the back of your carbopro hydra C5 and imitate the blend. I like being able to have the same basic formula for every swim but being able to make tweaks based on the unique demands of each.

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved Tides that I tried to swim against Have brought be down upon my knees Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    Have you tried mixing Carbo pro with something else, like an electrolyte/sports drink? I've mixed it with Gatorade Prime and my recent favorite, Golazo (organic, coconut water based). The mango-lime flavor goes well against the taste seawater. I've also added nuun to Carbo pro for flavor and electrolytes.

    ssthomas

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • SamSam Member

    I’ve read this thread and most of the linked articles and have scrawled the wider internet for answers but to no avail. I need some day-to-day nutrition advice (not just race day nutrition). My increase in swim training has seen my weight plummet…some may think this isn’t a bad thing…but I wasn’t really that weighty to begin with. I definitely can’t afford to lose anymore. Now I’d like to avoid simply using this as an excuse to increase by Pizza Hut dosage and actually eat healthy food. Does anyone have any great tips/links to diet plans/meals that people can eat day-to-day which preferably take account of being stuck in an office most the day?

    ssthomas
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    Sam said: Does anyone have any great tips/links to diet plans/meals that people can eat day-to-day which preferably take account of being stuck in an office most the day?

    I've been really happy on the LCHF (low-carb high-fat) diet. As has my doctor.

  • amkonetamkonet Columbus, Ohio, USAMember

    I fear this is a dumb question, but I've searched the archives, and the Google, and even Google Image searched trying to visualize how people carry nutrition during races! I've seen the dry bags and flotation devices for training, but can't figure out what's allowed/appropriate for races. So, where the heck am I supposed to PUT my nutrition if I don't have a boat feeding me?

    I'm doing Swim to the Moon 10k in August. I've done a couple 5ks, but this is my first 10k. My finish time goal is under 3:40, if things including training go well, I think 3:20 isn't out of the question. I've done a few triathlons, including a 70.3, so I have a good idea of what my stomach can tolerate over hours (the answer: not much). There will be aid stations with GU/Gatorade, but I know better than to trust my stomach to those things. I plan to use Tailwind, all-liquid nutrition if I can manage it.

    There is a special needs bag at 5k, but I'm afraid I'll bonk if I wait until then to start sipping calories. I'm also concerned that I won't be able to get enough down at the halfway point, and will struggle through the second half. Successful nutrition in triathlon has meant, for me, frequent, small, consistent sips. I'm ample-chested, and could probably shove a small handheld running bottle between my boobs, but chafing!

    Suggestions? Help? Someone pointing me to the obvious...?

  • timsroottimsroot Charter Member

    @amkonet - For short races, or races with neutral support like that, I carry some Gu in my suit, tucked into my waist band. Since swim to the Moon had mile markers, I ate a gu every mile, and I had a bottle with ~400 calories at the 5k turnaround.

    Swim to the Moon is a good swim. I enjoyed it.

    amkonet
  • bluemermaid9bluemermaid9 Boca Raton, FL, United StatesMember

    Not a dumb question at all! I've struggled (and continue to struggle) with this same issue at GCBS. I wrote about it here: http://blogs.marathonswimmers.org/bluemermaid/2016/07/10/great-chesapeake-bay-swim-2016-race-report/ Hope this helps!

    amkonet
  • MoCoMoCo Worcester, MAMember

    I had some pretty severe dehydration after GCBS the year I did it. It was hot, I was really slow, I spent a ton of time fighting the current (swam at 45 degrees to my direction of travel for a while), and somehow missed the first water boat. So I swam for 3:22 on a dixie cup of warm water and pack of justin's nut butter I had in my bathing suit. Not my best day, that's for sure.

    If I ever did it again, I'd probably try the collapsible bottle trick (thanks, @bluemermaid9 !) - but like anything else, I'd try it in training first. Especially if you think you'll need to mix your nutrition stronger than normal.

    bluemermaid9wendyv34amkonet
  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member

    After 3 years on UCAN (switched to combat GI issues), last August I decided to drastically change my carb heavy daily diet to LCHF. After 6 weeks on keto, I completed an 11 1/2 hour swim on minimal caloric intake. Only 2 feeds of UCAN at 5 hours & 7 1/2 hours. Never felt hungry; Crew insisted I feed. 2nd feed did not stay down. Hydrated on the top & bottom of each hour (using UCAN Hydrate product) and supplemented w/ Endurolyte capsules as I was cramping badly first half. Not a perfectly executed swim, but lessons were learned. Now, fascinated w/ the concept of using body fat as fuel, I plan to test my own personal limits. How long can I last using only stored body fat as fuel? It's my little summer science experiment. Have connected w/ other keto endurance athletes, but mostly runners & triathletes. Interested in connecting w/ other fat-adapted marathon swimmers to exchange notes.
    BTW, for training swims, I tow my own feeds using the donut hole shaped SaferSwimmer towfloat. Fits 2 bike bottles. A friend got permission to use her towfloat at GCBS to carry meds. @MoCo check w/ the RD, or as mentioned tuck GU & small bottles in your suit. Be safe...don't want to lose anymore swimmers in that race.

    IronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Moscow, RussiaCharter Member

    JBirrrd said: After 3 years on UCAN (switched to combat GI issues), last August I decided to drastically change my carb heavy daily diet to LCHF. After 6 weeks on keto, I completed an 11 1/2 hour swim on minimal caloric intake. Only 2 feeds of UCAN at 5 hours & 7 1/2 hours. Never felt hungry; Crew insisted I feed. 2nd feed did not stay down. Hydrated on the top & bottom of each hour (using UCAN Hydrate product) and supplemented w/ Endurolyte capsules as I was cramping badly first half. Not a perfectly executed swim, but lessons were learned. Now, fascinated w/ the concept of using body fat as fuel, I plan to test my own personal limits. How long can I last using only stored body fat as fuel? It's my little summer science experiment. Have connected w/ other keto endurance athletes, but mostly runners & triathletes. Interested in connecting w/ other fat-adapted marathon swimmers to exchange notes.

    @JBirrrd, check out the Keto-adapted thread. There are others here who are LCHF.

    DanSimonelli
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @JBirrrd \m/

    IronMike
  • amkonetamkonet Columbus, Ohio, USAMember

    bluemermaid9 said: Not a dumb question at all! I've struggled (and continue to struggle) with this same issue at GCBS. I wrote about it here: http://blogs.marathonswimmers.org/bluemermaid/2016/07/10/great-chesapeake-bay-swim-2016-race-report/ Hope this helps!

    This is helpful! Thank you! I've been thinking something like this stuck in my suit. Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like. I'll definitely rehearse in training to see how/if I chafe and how my body reacts.

    Are the edges of that collapsible bottle soft enough to not scratch you?

  • edited April 11

    "Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like."

    @amkonet If Gu doesn't do it for you, there are now many options out there that differ significantly from Gu, but boast similarly convenient packaging. Huma gels, Untapped Maple syrup, nut butters...it might be worth checking out some of these kinds of options for the convenience factor.

  • amkonetamkonet Columbus, Ohio, USAMember

    I just bought a soft hydration flask from Hydrapak that hopefully will be comfortable stuck in my swim suit. I plan to try it out with my beloved Tailwind on a few 4000y+ swims to see if I hate it or it's workable. I'd really love to be able to stick with what I know works for other endurance activities, but also have plenty of time to try new things, too.

    I recently tried some Untapped from a friend, and liked it pretty well on a run, but it was one packet, during one run, so not thorough testing. I'm nervous about the fiber in Huma, but might try them at the pool and see how I do.

    Thanks for pointing me in a direction here, everyone!

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